Friday, 30 November 2012
Advent, a thought
When we’re sick, especially a long time, sometimes it
becomes hard to anticipate anything with pleasure. Festivals and
festivities all need too much work. Fun is stimulating which again
drains the little resources left for the day to day. The ‘having come’
of Jesus I can truly celebrate with joy, the ‘is here’ of Jesus has been
my constant consolation, and the ‘will come’ is a hope , not just for
my weary bones, but for my heart to meet up with in full the one who has
truly stuck by me in all this.
Friday, 23 November 2012
Study : Who or what is a Pastor ?
Who or what is a Pastor ?
NT church leadership : Dictionary study
I got some Bible dictionaries out, mainly Vines and looked up a few New Testament leadership words. I think some of them are so loaded with political and religious overtones these days that it could be safer just to use the word leader ! I think that if you keep a funny looking foreign word that's become a posh or jargon word then you can give it any meaning you like cos you've avoided using plain English.
* Pastor : latin of course, I forgot that. The greek is poimen - I'd never heared of that before and the New Testament is riddled with it. Not a religious word in greek or latin, but a concept used for leaders in the OT. Everywhere the translators go all the way to translating it into shepherd EXCEPT in eph 4 where they keep the latin word pastor. Hmmm, is there a whiff of politics in the air here ?
* Bishop : An englishified pronunciation of episcopos - epi - greek for over, scopeo - to look at or watch. Overseer, foreman, supervisor. Not a religious word.
* Elder : prebuteros : greek for old, and may well refer to maturity and experience not just age given that life expectancy wasn't so brilliant. Not a religious word. We still talk greek - presbyters - i've never known what they do though although I was christened in my grandad Jones' Presbyterian church and he was an elder. I've just answered my own question. He sang in the Liverpool welsh male voice choir too and he died playing tennis - his friends thought he as larking around as usual when he keeled over. That's not in Vines.
* Deacon or Minister was well worth a look. : - greek verb diaco - to hasten after. Used to mean servant or serving. It indicates that you're not the boss - you're running round for a master. You're not doing things because you fancy it or for your fulfillment (though that could be a result). It gets used all over the place. Very very rarely is it a job title. The ones who are picked in acts 6 are never actually called deacons, the word is the one used for waiting at tables (pretty impressive church policy to pay for that many high quality men to care for the elderly - we do pick and choose what doctrines and practices we choose to follow or ignore).
Diakonos are household servants amongst other things, but can be doing anything from scrubbing floors to accountancy. It comes in "serving one another" 1pet4v10, "works of service" eph4. In 1timv10,13 "Let them serve as deacons" seems to be more encouraging a particular attitude than a job title, Mr. Vines says. It seems to be that we all should serve. Some are appointed serve as overseers but they should do that and everything else they do with an attitude of service.
Diaconos describes a) how we work for God, b) preaching and teaching and c) working for the church. Paul calls himself one twice, in acts 26v16 and along with Apollos and Cephas in 1cor4v1.
Vines says the technical difference between diaconos - hired servant, and dulos - bond slave is the type of contract with the master - ie the second is permanent.They probably do much the same work just on a different contract.
[Dulos - bond slave ie Old Testament slavery which is forced service too but the person is not bought or kidnapped. It's imposed by a court (the elders at the gate) to pay off debt or fines. Slaves should still be given civic rights. It can't last more than 7 years. If at the end of the time the slave decides steady work with food and lodging thrown in is less hazardous than hanging about in the market place being used as temporary labour its him who says to the master I like you and want to stay on. I dont know how much say the master gets in it! A scarification on the ear lobe is the visual sign of the permanent contract between the two according to Leviticus. What if these days, instead of prison, offenders had to work as free household employees for the people they have stolen from, or creditors etc... until they've worked enough hours to pay it off, or 7 years which ever is the least and then have the option of permanent work and lodgings at the end of it?]
1pet 5v2 refers to people as overseers and shepherds,
and in hebrews Jesus is the overseer and shepherd.
1tim5v17 those that look after the affairs of the church well are worth paying properly.
Leadership is always plural when it comes to elders or shepherds
and they 1)feed 2)lead 3)protect : Acts - Paul's farewell to the Ephesian elders.
I think that, (following the logic of vines' suggestions):-
° Overseer/Bishop (episcopos) is a job title,
° Elder (prebuteros)- is the qualities/qualifications required
° Deacon/Minister/Presbyter (diaconos) is job role and attitude ie obedience to the boss, working, meeting needs
° Shepherd/Pastor (poimen) is a job/task description, along with Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, (see below)
So -lizzy f's conclusion :
Using the words as they were originally used outside a church context
- your average slave
could spend his/her day serving
he becomes elderly/experienced,
so he/she could be promoted to work as theforeman/supervisor.
Senior tasks can include being looking after and teaching other workers, and acting on behalf of the boss - giving messages, being sent out to sort out things, and making public announcements about his good news.
AND inside church the same person could also
- be in a dulos/slave relationship with God,
and so could Deacon/Minister serve in the church
he's mature Elder/Presbyter
and so could be an Overseer/Bishop, which according to Ephesians 4 could then be
Pastor ( poimen :greek -shepherd), one who feeds, leads, protects the flock
Evangelist (euangelion - town crier, from : eu - well/good,- angellein- to bring news ) person who proclaims some good news
Apostle (greek apo - away, stellein - to send) someone sent out to help or advise
Prophet (greek - prophetes, pro - for(another)- phanai - to speak) to speak on behalf of someone, in this case God, spokesman, representative.
Teacher (didaskalos - to show, teach, impart) to pass on skills and knowledge
and by doing it he will be helping the people to serve too and so build up the Body of Christ
NT church leadership : Dictionary study
I got some Bible dictionaries out, mainly Vines and looked up a few New Testament leadership words. I think some of them are so loaded with political and religious overtones these days that it could be safer just to use the word leader ! I think that if you keep a funny looking foreign word that's become a posh or jargon word then you can give it any meaning you like cos you've avoided using plain English.
* Pastor : latin of course, I forgot that. The greek is poimen - I'd never heared of that before and the New Testament is riddled with it. Not a religious word in greek or latin, but a concept used for leaders in the OT. Everywhere the translators go all the way to translating it into shepherd EXCEPT in eph 4 where they keep the latin word pastor. Hmmm, is there a whiff of politics in the air here ?
* Bishop : An englishified pronunciation of episcopos - epi - greek for over, scopeo - to look at or watch. Overseer, foreman, supervisor. Not a religious word.
* Elder : prebuteros : greek for old, and may well refer to maturity and experience not just age given that life expectancy wasn't so brilliant. Not a religious word. We still talk greek - presbyters - i've never known what they do though although I was christened in my grandad Jones' Presbyterian church and he was an elder. I've just answered my own question. He sang in the Liverpool welsh male voice choir too and he died playing tennis - his friends thought he as larking around as usual when he keeled over. That's not in Vines.
* Deacon or Minister was well worth a look. : - greek verb diaco - to hasten after. Used to mean servant or serving. It indicates that you're not the boss - you're running round for a master. You're not doing things because you fancy it or for your fulfillment (though that could be a result). It gets used all over the place. Very very rarely is it a job title. The ones who are picked in acts 6 are never actually called deacons, the word is the one used for waiting at tables (pretty impressive church policy to pay for that many high quality men to care for the elderly - we do pick and choose what doctrines and practices we choose to follow or ignore).
Diakonos are household servants amongst other things, but can be doing anything from scrubbing floors to accountancy. It comes in "serving one another" 1pet4v10, "works of service" eph4. In 1timv10,13 "Let them serve as deacons" seems to be more encouraging a particular attitude than a job title, Mr. Vines says. It seems to be that we all should serve. Some are appointed serve as overseers but they should do that and everything else they do with an attitude of service.
Diaconos describes a) how we work for God, b) preaching and teaching and c) working for the church. Paul calls himself one twice, in acts 26v16 and along with Apollos and Cephas in 1cor4v1.
Vines says the technical difference between diaconos - hired servant, and dulos - bond slave is the type of contract with the master - ie the second is permanent.They probably do much the same work just on a different contract.
[Dulos - bond slave ie Old Testament slavery which is forced service too but the person is not bought or kidnapped. It's imposed by a court (the elders at the gate) to pay off debt or fines. Slaves should still be given civic rights. It can't last more than 7 years. If at the end of the time the slave decides steady work with food and lodging thrown in is less hazardous than hanging about in the market place being used as temporary labour its him who says to the master I like you and want to stay on. I dont know how much say the master gets in it! A scarification on the ear lobe is the visual sign of the permanent contract between the two according to Leviticus. What if these days, instead of prison, offenders had to work as free household employees for the people they have stolen from, or creditors etc... until they've worked enough hours to pay it off, or 7 years which ever is the least and then have the option of permanent work and lodgings at the end of it?]
1pet 5v2 refers to people as overseers and shepherds,
and in hebrews Jesus is the overseer and shepherd.
1tim5v17 those that look after the affairs of the church well are worth paying properly.
Leadership is always plural when it comes to elders or shepherds
and they 1)feed 2)lead 3)protect : Acts - Paul's farewell to the Ephesian elders.
I think that, (following the logic of vines' suggestions):-
° Overseer/Bishop (episcopos) is a job title,
° Elder (prebuteros)- is the qualities/qualifications required
° Deacon/Minister/Presbyter (diaconos) is job role and attitude ie obedience to the boss, working, meeting needs
° Shepherd/Pastor (poimen) is a job/task description, along with Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, (see below)
So -lizzy f's conclusion :
Using the words as they were originally used outside a church context
- your average slave
could spend his/her day serving
he becomes elderly/experienced,
so he/she could be promoted to work as theforeman/supervisor.
Senior tasks can include being looking after and teaching other workers, and acting on behalf of the boss - giving messages, being sent out to sort out things, and making public announcements about his good news.
AND inside church the same person could also
- be in a dulos/slave relationship with God,
and so could Deacon/Minister serve in the church
he's mature Elder/Presbyter
and so could be an Overseer/Bishop, which according to Ephesians 4 could then be
Pastor ( poimen :greek -shepherd), one who feeds, leads, protects the flock
Evangelist (euangelion - town crier, from : eu - well/good,- angellein- to bring news ) person who proclaims some good news
Apostle (greek apo - away, stellein - to send) someone sent out to help or advise
Prophet (greek - prophetes, pro - for(another)- phanai - to speak) to speak on behalf of someone, in this case God, spokesman, representative.
Teacher (didaskalos - to show, teach, impart) to pass on skills and knowledge
and by doing it he will be helping the people to serve too and so build up the Body of Christ
Monday, 19 November 2012
Study : Can These Bones Live ? - Nicky Gumbel
| Psalm 129:1-8 · James 3:1-18 · Ezekiel 36:1-37:28 · Read all |
| November 19 Day 323 |
Can These Bones Live?
‘Thousands of churches face
closure, demolition or conversion in the next decade, leading to the
demise of some branches of Christianity in Europe’ wrote Ruth Gledhill
in the London Times. We see churches in decline, closures, dry
formality, few young people and few vocations in some parts of the
church. There seems to be a spiritual dryness and a lack of hope,
almost a sense of being abandoned.
As we look out at the church in some
parts of the world, especially in the UK and Europe, it appears to be
like the vision which Ezekiel saw of the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel
37). Dry bones are a picture of demise and death. The dry bones in
Ezekiel’s vision are the people of God. God asks Ezekiel ‘can these bones live?’ (Ezekiel 37:3).
The vision of Ezekiel continues with a
prophecy of resurrection and restoration for the people. Three weeks
ago we had a Worship Central live recording at one our church sites in
Onslow Square, London. Until a few years ago that church was empty and
unused, but that night it was packed to the rafters (as indeed it is now
every Sunday). One of the new songs we sang was based on this chapter
from Ezekiel, Dry Bones (by Worship Central). As we sang it
that night we were a living demonstration of its truth. There is hope
for God's people, there is hope for the Church, these dry bones will live again.
1. Trust God to turn things right aroundPsalm 129:1-8
Do you sometimes feel kicked around
by the enemy? Everything seems to be going wrong. You seem to be
losing. You are experiencing the oppression of the enemy (v.1).
But victory rests with the Lord. The
psalmist says, ‘They’ve kicked me around ever since I was young ...
Their ploughmen ploughed long furrows up and down my back; Then God
ripped the harnesses of the evil ploughmen to shreds’ (vv.1–4, MSG).
2. Develop a spiritually healthy communityJames 3:1-18
Dry bones can live again. It is
possible to develop a healthy body again individually and as a
community: ‘You can develop a healthy, robust community that lives right
with God and enjoy the results’ (v.18, MSG). However, there are
conditions – which the apostle James sets out in this chapter.
He continues to warn about the tongue
– especially for those of us who teach: ‘Teaching is highly responsible
work. Teachers are held to the strictest standards’ (v.1, MSG). It is
consoling that he adds, ‘we all stumble in many ways’ (v.2) – certainly
I do.
The tongue is a powerful little
instrument which can do so much good, and so much harm ‘By our speech we
can ruin the world, turn harmony to chaos, throw mud on a reputation,
send the whole world up in smoke and go up in smoke with it, smoke right
from the pit of hell’ (v.8, MSG).
Harsh, unjust words have destructive
power: ‘With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we
curse people, who have been made in God's likeness’ (v.9). To curse
means to speak evil. To bless means to speak well. We need to learn to
control the tongue so that we speak only words of blessing to people
and about people.
This little instrument of our bodies
can do so much damage. Relationships, even marriages, often end because
of things that have been said or not said. People lose their jobs,
their reputation, start arguments or even wars by their words.
On the other hand, our words have
tremendous power for good. They can bring healing, encouragement and
edification. They can build or destroy. Our words can change a
person’s day or even life.
The apostle James goes on to speak of
‘the wisdom that comes from heaven’ (v.17). He writes, ‘Do you want to
be counted wise, to build a reputation for wisdom? Here’s what you
do: Live well, live wisely, live humbly. It’s the way you live, not
the way you talk, that counts’ (v.13, MSG).
We need to get rid of all bitter envy
and selfish ambition (v.14). Envy and selfish ambition are
unspiritual, from the devil, and cause all kinds of disorder and evil
practice (vv.14–15).
He contrasts that kind of false
wisdom with the wisdom that comes from heaven: ‘Real wisdom, God’s
wisdom, begins with a holy life and is characterised by getting along
with others’ (v.17, MSG). This wisdom ‘is first of all pure; then
peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit,
impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of
righteousness’ (vv.17–18).
If we live like this our lives will
have a huge impact on society. The Message version describes this as
doing 'the hard work of getting along with each other, treating each
other with dignity and honour’ (v.18, MSG). If we work hard at our
relationships with those around us, then we will 'reap a harvest of
righteousness', and we will have a huge impact on society.
3. Be filled with the Holy SpiritEzekiel 36:1-37:28
Hope at last! Dry bones can live!
We have read so many prophecies of judgment. But God is about to act.
God speaks to his people and says, you are ‘coming home’. ‘I’m on your
side’. Instead of death there is going to be ‘life, life and more
life’ (vv.8–11, MSG).
How will this happen? God promises ‘I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you ; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh . And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws’ (vv.26–27).
In the Old Testament God’s Spirit
came on particular people at particular times for particular purposes.
God promises that his Spirit will live in all of his people, all of
the time. He will replace our hard hearts with soft hearts – hearts of
compassion. He will give us new desires – the desire to love and serve
other people. He will give us a heart that does not want to sin. We
still do sin but our consciences are very sensitive and very
uncomfortable with sin. His Spirit strengthens us and enables us to do
God’s will.
God promises, ‘On the day I cleanse you from all your sins ... the ruins will be rebuilt … So will the ruined cities be filled with flocks of people’
(vv.33–38). This vision of restoration gives me such hope for the
church in our nation, and across the world. God never abandons his
people, and his plans are always ultimately to restore and save us.
Here is a beautiful description of forgiveness, a new heart, the Spirit
of God living within us, renewal, rebuilding, restoration and growth.
It will come about through ‘the word of the Sovereign Lord’ (v.4) and ‘the Spirit of
the Lord’ (37:1). ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: “Come from
the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may
live.” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them;
they came to life and stood up on their feet – a vast army.
‘Then he said to me: “Son of man,
these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are
dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ Therefore prophesy and
say to them: ... ‘I will put my Spirit in you and you will live’ ” ’ (vv.9b–14).
We should not speak negatively. We
should speak words of life. God can revive things that have been dry
and even dead. When the word of God and the Spirit of God come together
there is resurrection life and the knowledge of God. What is
impossible with human beings becomes possible with the power of God.
The chorus of Worship Central’s song Dry Bones
brings these aspects together – ‘these dry bones will live again ...
we’re nothing without you, nothing without you.’ Without God we can do
nothing – the church would indeed crumble away as the world tells us.
But with God, these dry bones will live again.
And there is yet more. The Holy
Spirit brings unity. The Lord gives Ezekiel a visual aid using two
sticks to communicate the unity God is going to establish: ‘Join them
together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand …
making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand …
one king over all of them … one shepherd’ (vv.17,19,22,24).
This is a foretaste of the unity of the body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4–6).
God promises ‘I will be their God, and they will be my people’ (Ezekiel 37:27).
Pippa Adds
Ezekiel 36:26
‘I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.’
We recently came back from the Alpha Weekend where we saw hearts of stone melting into hearts of flesh – an incredibly moving sight. |
Sunday, 18 November 2012
A Prophecy : Growth and division.
July 2012
Genesis 11:31
"Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there."
This is a word of prophecy NOT doctrine. Other people have used these verses to say other things. This doesn't conflict in any way with that.
I believe that God is bringing another wave of blessing in the British churches. It may have already started, I don't know. It is a new thing even though waves contain the water of the previous waves recycled into new forward movement following on from the pulling back and regrouping phase. Each new "wave" claims a bit more "land" as "the earth shall will be filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea".
There are however a number of people who have accompanied the church through several waves already, or several stages of this journey already, to change image back to this verse, . They are weary and are "old" (tho may not be old in years).
I believe that God is saying that in the same way as Terah brought Abraham out of Ur and got them as far as Harran, but God, being gentle and merciful, he let the family break the journey in Harran while Terah lived out the rest of his old age and moved the rest on afterwards. I believe that God is saying that it's OK to allow resting points, oases, for those who are full of years, who have maybe born the brunt of previous waves. Those who stay with them are not disobeying God. They are to care for them. It's in no way a criticism of those people. They will still live a fulfilled Christian life and of course still have the same commands to love God and neighbour - I don't think that God is actually offering anyone a picnic. They will honour God in the finishing off of their phase of what God been doing. When some things come to the end of their run it will not be wrong to close them down - they were good things, but have run their course. These people have been very faithful to God, they got us out of Ur for starters and a long way along the road to Caanan. We must honour them. There are plenty who will run with the new things that God is doing and in that there will be great blessing but also much work and inconvenience. For those who need, it is not wrong to not move on this time. However for those who need to move with the new wave into new things the old mustn't hold them back.
I believe that God is saying that it's OK to start new congregations and organisations and wine-skins to do new things. Those who stay in the old resting point are not sinning. Those who divide up into the new are not sinning. Those who criticise the others will be sinning.
This is a time not for rupture division, but for healthy growth division. Lots of it. Not all will "succeed" as we see it but for the health of all concerned division needs to happen. Replanting. Relocation. Different images, same idea. Some of the old things will "die off" (as we see it) naturally in their own time (no euthanasia, however irritating and demanding the old is). That's OK, that's the natural rhythm of things. Be gentle with those in that phase. Be courteous. Care for them as you should care for any elderly. Allow comfortable congregations. Don't make them feel left out. Listen to their wisdom, you don't have to re-invent the wheel. The new things are springing out of the old as naturally as plants send out runners to grow new plants. The runner then dies off and the two (usually many many more) survive or not independently.
Genesis 11:31
"Terah took his son Abram, his grandson Lot son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, the wife of his son Abram, and together they set out from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to Canaan. But when they came to Harran, they settled there."
This is a word of prophecy NOT doctrine. Other people have used these verses to say other things. This doesn't conflict in any way with that.
I believe that God is bringing another wave of blessing in the British churches. It may have already started, I don't know. It is a new thing even though waves contain the water of the previous waves recycled into new forward movement following on from the pulling back and regrouping phase. Each new "wave" claims a bit more "land" as "the earth shall will be filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea".
There are however a number of people who have accompanied the church through several waves already, or several stages of this journey already, to change image back to this verse, . They are weary and are "old" (tho may not be old in years).
I believe that God is saying that in the same way as Terah brought Abraham out of Ur and got them as far as Harran, but God, being gentle and merciful, he let the family break the journey in Harran while Terah lived out the rest of his old age and moved the rest on afterwards. I believe that God is saying that it's OK to allow resting points, oases, for those who are full of years, who have maybe born the brunt of previous waves. Those who stay with them are not disobeying God. They are to care for them. It's in no way a criticism of those people. They will still live a fulfilled Christian life and of course still have the same commands to love God and neighbour - I don't think that God is actually offering anyone a picnic. They will honour God in the finishing off of their phase of what God been doing. When some things come to the end of their run it will not be wrong to close them down - they were good things, but have run their course. These people have been very faithful to God, they got us out of Ur for starters and a long way along the road to Caanan. We must honour them. There are plenty who will run with the new things that God is doing and in that there will be great blessing but also much work and inconvenience. For those who need, it is not wrong to not move on this time. However for those who need to move with the new wave into new things the old mustn't hold them back.
I believe that God is saying that it's OK to start new congregations and organisations and wine-skins to do new things. Those who stay in the old resting point are not sinning. Those who divide up into the new are not sinning. Those who criticise the others will be sinning.
This is a time not for rupture division, but for healthy growth division. Lots of it. Not all will "succeed" as we see it but for the health of all concerned division needs to happen. Replanting. Relocation. Different images, same idea. Some of the old things will "die off" (as we see it) naturally in their own time (no euthanasia, however irritating and demanding the old is). That's OK, that's the natural rhythm of things. Be gentle with those in that phase. Be courteous. Care for them as you should care for any elderly. Allow comfortable congregations. Don't make them feel left out. Listen to their wisdom, you don't have to re-invent the wheel. The new things are springing out of the old as naturally as plants send out runners to grow new plants. The runner then dies off and the two (usually many many more) survive or not independently.
A Rave : Church Congregations
I happen to be crazy about church planting, especially when it's in it's early stages. We've had the privilege to be closely connected with quite a few church plants. The depth of fellowship and commitment to one another and to the Lord is something really special. As in most expressions of mission, being outward looking but nourishing the inner functioning makes for some very special group dynamics. These are where I have seen the gifts and fruit of the spirit most freely expressed. Where I have seen people mature and grow as they take on new responsibilities. I just love the sense of hearing God speak, of the expectation that he will, and the flexibility to be willing to act on what he says.
I do have problems when these groups are victims of their own success. They get too big and too noticeable to be able to take risks or let new people have a go. People believe that it was the leaders who did it and sometimes the leaders themselves end up believing that too. It wasn't, it's always a group dynamic even if there is a particularly inspiring leader at the heart of it.
I loved what David Pawson spoke about some years ago in the early days of the new churches movement. He said that as far as he can see from the bible it's healthy for each christian to have contact at several different levels. He called it Cell, Congregation and Celebration.
* Cell : That everyone should have a place they can share personally and intimately.
* Congregation :That they should be able to be part of a group that is big enough to have a public identity but small enough for everyone to still know each other, and
* Celebration : to be big enough for folks to be able to be aware of being part of something much bigger than their parochial interests.
I can relate to that, I can relate it to my own human social needs. I need to function and have an identity at several different levels. Just as much in my faith as in any other area of life. I need networks, and I need them on different levels.
Although I like Cell and Celebration I know that my happiest area of functioning is Congregation. I just love getting together to worship God and learn together. I have been privileged to have been involved in worship bands in one way or another for nearly 30 years. In a smaller groups a band is not needed, it would be overwhelming, in bigger groups no one would have asked me to lead, or even be involved. There, I'm pretty selfish why I like congregations! I love the dynamic of leading worship in a group that is big enough to have a good number of people who will pray out loud but not so big that new or not so confident people can't join in; where there are several people who prophecy - not that they all do it all the time, but there will be a body of experience that can test prophecy and again can support those who are new or lacking confidence.
For children I think it's good to have a social grouping that means that it's not just a tiny group of children thrown on each other but the dynamic of a group that can do more age appropriate things. I think it's good for kids to relate to a reasonable number of adults, not that they know them all to talk to, but they watch, they see how they treat each other and the simple familiarity makes for stability and trust to be able to be built up. They do notice especially how their parents relate to the group and how they take responsibility and how they get enjoyment. Of course if these groups become rigid, self sufficient, self centered they can no longer have the dynamic dynamics that make them both stimulating but safe. They become prisons.That doesn't make the groups wrong, just one particular group becomes unhealthily self obsessed. On the other hand groups equally become so task orientated that they don't meet the needs of their members.
I know it became an unbalanced teaching for a while, but I really do think that a happy and relatively stable church is a brilliant way to reach out to people. That's how I function. I make friends and share my faith and bring them into the body of people who will nurture them and lead them on. I feel like i'm living with a limp not having that.
I have had to live with very little fellowship for a number of years. It's not a normal or healthy way of being, but that's how it was. I still can't "go to church". God has given me his grace to live with that. I couldn't even read the bible or pray for a while I was so unwell and having to care for our sick kids. God reached out to me and carried me through those years. He stuck by me all the way. But that's not a normal situation. I can understand that there are a number of people who for their own different reasons need to walk a more solitary christian walk for a while. I think I have actually benefited from being able to sit back and think about what I believe and what I want in my corporate expression of that. But in other ways I have seriously lacked help, support, understanding that should have been there if I had been able to be part of a healthy christian grouping at that time. I'm very grateful for 3 friends who I had not necessarily been that close to before, I knew them through church or christian union links, but who have reached out to me in a particular way at a particular time to help me cope with something. These things don't just "happen". I hope that in some ways I have been able to set in motion christian actions to make things happen, and to support others who have been able to make much bigger initiatives than I could. That is part of what "church" is about for me. The thing about congregation is that we can make them happen for everyone, not just for the popular or accessible people. People who are naturally reserved under the surface like I was need these communities of faith especially both to be able to receive and to be able to give.
Yes, some models of "church" do not seem to be best adapted to meet some people's needs. Yes, I can see that there are serious areas of dysfunction in some types of church grouping that can cause damage and cause alienation or oppression or leave people open to manipulative or domination behaviours. But I still believe the "church" in some form or other is the best default setting for most of us most of the time. We are social beings. We benefit from some social structures and rituals and obligations. I am not so cynical as to believe that anarchy will always lead to a "Lord of the Flies" situation, but I do feel that without some social structures we are not automatically nice. Whilst I'm very wary of the concept of heresy I do think that there needs to be recognition that there can be what the NT calls false teaching, people do get led into error, and there is a need for some form of ways of dealing with that. Error is not bad just cos it's wrong, it's because it leads to unhealthy practices and deprives people of the truth.
Also I think some sort of structure of some sort is needed to protect the weak and to promote their interests. If Paul had to point out to a lovely excited and exciting church in Corinth that they were being pretty mean by not making sure there was food for those who were poor at their communal meals, how can we think that we don't need someone keeping a weather eye on our practices or lack of them sometimes.
For those who need to walk the less communal walk at the moment, I do understand what it is and have walked it too. I throw no stones at you. I hope you find it refreshing and fulfilling. I think it is very significant that a remarkable number of those who no longer feel able to be part of four walls church have had leadership roles of one sort or another. They're not stupid. They know their bibles. There seem to me especially to be rather a number of disappointed idealists and creative thinkers. For all that I believe that church can be wonderful and I think it's the best human default setting for expressing and growing our faith in the long run, there are issues that need to be addressed. I highly respect Jeff Lucas who has been confronting some of these things in his CWR daily bible reading notes recently, and in other of his writings for a few years now. May we grow in learning how the ligaments in Ephesians grow and build each other up.
I do have problems when these groups are victims of their own success. They get too big and too noticeable to be able to take risks or let new people have a go. People believe that it was the leaders who did it and sometimes the leaders themselves end up believing that too. It wasn't, it's always a group dynamic even if there is a particularly inspiring leader at the heart of it.
I loved what David Pawson spoke about some years ago in the early days of the new churches movement. He said that as far as he can see from the bible it's healthy for each christian to have contact at several different levels. He called it Cell, Congregation and Celebration.
* Cell : That everyone should have a place they can share personally and intimately.
* Congregation :That they should be able to be part of a group that is big enough to have a public identity but small enough for everyone to still know each other, and
* Celebration : to be big enough for folks to be able to be aware of being part of something much bigger than their parochial interests.
I can relate to that, I can relate it to my own human social needs. I need to function and have an identity at several different levels. Just as much in my faith as in any other area of life. I need networks, and I need them on different levels.
Although I like Cell and Celebration I know that my happiest area of functioning is Congregation. I just love getting together to worship God and learn together. I have been privileged to have been involved in worship bands in one way or another for nearly 30 years. In a smaller groups a band is not needed, it would be overwhelming, in bigger groups no one would have asked me to lead, or even be involved. There, I'm pretty selfish why I like congregations! I love the dynamic of leading worship in a group that is big enough to have a good number of people who will pray out loud but not so big that new or not so confident people can't join in; where there are several people who prophecy - not that they all do it all the time, but there will be a body of experience that can test prophecy and again can support those who are new or lacking confidence.
For children I think it's good to have a social grouping that means that it's not just a tiny group of children thrown on each other but the dynamic of a group that can do more age appropriate things. I think it's good for kids to relate to a reasonable number of adults, not that they know them all to talk to, but they watch, they see how they treat each other and the simple familiarity makes for stability and trust to be able to be built up. They do notice especially how their parents relate to the group and how they take responsibility and how they get enjoyment. Of course if these groups become rigid, self sufficient, self centered they can no longer have the dynamic dynamics that make them both stimulating but safe. They become prisons.That doesn't make the groups wrong, just one particular group becomes unhealthily self obsessed. On the other hand groups equally become so task orientated that they don't meet the needs of their members.
I know it became an unbalanced teaching for a while, but I really do think that a happy and relatively stable church is a brilliant way to reach out to people. That's how I function. I make friends and share my faith and bring them into the body of people who will nurture them and lead them on. I feel like i'm living with a limp not having that.
I have had to live with very little fellowship for a number of years. It's not a normal or healthy way of being, but that's how it was. I still can't "go to church". God has given me his grace to live with that. I couldn't even read the bible or pray for a while I was so unwell and having to care for our sick kids. God reached out to me and carried me through those years. He stuck by me all the way. But that's not a normal situation. I can understand that there are a number of people who for their own different reasons need to walk a more solitary christian walk for a while. I think I have actually benefited from being able to sit back and think about what I believe and what I want in my corporate expression of that. But in other ways I have seriously lacked help, support, understanding that should have been there if I had been able to be part of a healthy christian grouping at that time. I'm very grateful for 3 friends who I had not necessarily been that close to before, I knew them through church or christian union links, but who have reached out to me in a particular way at a particular time to help me cope with something. These things don't just "happen". I hope that in some ways I have been able to set in motion christian actions to make things happen, and to support others who have been able to make much bigger initiatives than I could. That is part of what "church" is about for me. The thing about congregation is that we can make them happen for everyone, not just for the popular or accessible people. People who are naturally reserved under the surface like I was need these communities of faith especially both to be able to receive and to be able to give.
Yes, some models of "church" do not seem to be best adapted to meet some people's needs. Yes, I can see that there are serious areas of dysfunction in some types of church grouping that can cause damage and cause alienation or oppression or leave people open to manipulative or domination behaviours. But I still believe the "church" in some form or other is the best default setting for most of us most of the time. We are social beings. We benefit from some social structures and rituals and obligations. I am not so cynical as to believe that anarchy will always lead to a "Lord of the Flies" situation, but I do feel that without some social structures we are not automatically nice. Whilst I'm very wary of the concept of heresy I do think that there needs to be recognition that there can be what the NT calls false teaching, people do get led into error, and there is a need for some form of ways of dealing with that. Error is not bad just cos it's wrong, it's because it leads to unhealthy practices and deprives people of the truth.
Also I think some sort of structure of some sort is needed to protect the weak and to promote their interests. If Paul had to point out to a lovely excited and exciting church in Corinth that they were being pretty mean by not making sure there was food for those who were poor at their communal meals, how can we think that we don't need someone keeping a weather eye on our practices or lack of them sometimes.
For those who need to walk the less communal walk at the moment, I do understand what it is and have walked it too. I throw no stones at you. I hope you find it refreshing and fulfilling. I think it is very significant that a remarkable number of those who no longer feel able to be part of four walls church have had leadership roles of one sort or another. They're not stupid. They know their bibles. There seem to me especially to be rather a number of disappointed idealists and creative thinkers. For all that I believe that church can be wonderful and I think it's the best human default setting for expressing and growing our faith in the long run, there are issues that need to be addressed. I highly respect Jeff Lucas who has been confronting some of these things in his CWR daily bible reading notes recently, and in other of his writings for a few years now. May we grow in learning how the ligaments in Ephesians grow and build each other up.
Saturday, 17 November 2012
Study : Giving - to whom ?
Giving - to whom ?
By Liz Figures in THRESHING FLOOR (Files) · Edit doc · Delete
1. Attitudes to giving
* 1 Corinthians 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
* Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices— mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.
* James 2:2-4
2" Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, Here's a good seat for you, but say to the poor man, You stand there or Sit on the floor by my feet,
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
* 2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
* 2 Corinthians 8
The Collection for the Lord’s People
13 "Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,"
2) Who to give to
A) RELATIVES
1 tim 5v8 "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
B) LEADERS
17 "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching."
1 cor 9v 13 "Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."
Galatians 6v6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
C) BROTHERS IN NEED
Acts 4:34
There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
Acts 4:35
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 10:2
He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
rom 12 v13 "Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality."
Ephesians 4:28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Matthew 6:2So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
James 2:15-17
15 "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
1 john 3v17 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
D) THE POOR
acts 6v1" In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:32-34 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 14:13
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
Acts 9:36
In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor.
Acts 10:4
Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord? he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
Acts 10:31
and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor.
Acts 24:17
After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings.Galatians 2v9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
Galations 2 v 9
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
Matthew 25 The Sheep and the Goats
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
* 1 Corinthians 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
* Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices— mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.
* James 2:2-4
2" Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, Here's a good seat for you, but say to the poor man, You stand there or Sit on the floor by my feet,
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
* 2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
* 2 Corinthians 8
The Collection for the Lord’s People
13 "Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,"
2) Who to give to
A) RELATIVES
1 tim 5v8 "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
B) LEADERS
17 "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching."
1 cor 9v 13 "Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."
Galatians 6v6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
C) BROTHERS IN NEED
Acts 4:34
There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
Acts 4:35
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 10:2
He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
rom 12 v13 "Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality."
Ephesians 4:28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Matthew 6:2So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
James 2:15-17
15 "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
1 john 3v17 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
D) THE POOR
acts 6v1" In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:32-34 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 14:13
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
Acts 9:36
In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor.
Acts 10:4
Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord? he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
Acts 10:31
and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor.
Acts 24:17
After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings.Galatians 2v9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
Galations 2 v 9
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
Matthew 25 The Sheep and the Goats
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Thoughts : Praying for Israel
This IS an interesting or ghastly discussion depending on how you look at it.
Do you want the lizzyfigures theory of praying for Israel ? It comes from recently re-reading Isaiah and Psalms.
* In the first section of Isaiah when they're IN their OWN land they are treated as the dominant power and judged accordingly - How do they treat the needy? the alien in the land and all that? idolatry, hedonism etc ? As a result of bullying they are handed over to other even bigger bullies to learn their lesson.
* When, later in Isaiah, they're in exile, aliens in someone else's land the words on balance are largely reassuring and comforting.
* The "Songs of Ascent", the very Zionist psalms. They're not theology, they're what they sing in the bus on the way to a pilgrimage - think of fans going to a concert or a football match. They're on holiday, wearing their best clothes, having time with family and friends whilst doing the journey to the feast - they pray for all the good things they can think of for Zion. But that's not theology.
I think we get up the spout praying for Israel cos we forget that they're human like the rest of us. We want them to be something extraordinary cos of our superstitions and hopes and fears. But they're a secular state, doing what secular states do.
* There's one more OT factor that I think biases our attitudes towards what's happening in the middle east. In the OT the Philistines (different pronunciation of Palestinian, the sound P doesn't exist in their language, only ph/f) were the dominant power who kept encroaching on the borders of Israel and pillaging and looting etc. They were therefore "the baddies" who had to be repelled, like Viking invaders in Britain for example. But now the boot is on the other foot. The muslim state that was set up to balance the new Israel is Jordan, but there are the other dwellers in the land who are not catered for under that arrangement and had to cohabit with Israel. This leaves Israel as the dominant power base now and I think we should judge their behaviour with the same rules as what was expected when it was the other way round.
* Jesus, was not at any point a Zionist. ( Kenneth Bailey, "Jesus through Mediterranean Eyes"),
* Romans. Now what a pickle. Paul is trying to restore a balance, trying to reconcile the different sides to understand and tolerate each other and we use these passages to do the opposite. Into the chasm of misunderstanding, as everyone knows, Paul wades in to explain to the Jewish Christians how yes the Gentile Christians are fully paid up bonafide adopted children of God. Yes, horror of horrors, now it's not just sons of Abraham but the adopted kids get all the same rights, and keeping the law is no more adequate than it ever was. Those 8 amazingly detailed chapters where Paul patiently faces the Jewish Christians up to the horror of having to share their God AND accept that the route of access is not Jewishness, but Jesus. Then follow the 3 must more simple and direct chapters where Paul challenges the Gentile view and reminds them just as firmly that there IS something special going on between the Jews God, they did get in first, will have some sort of special deal in the long run and they, the Gentiles need to be pretty grateful that they've been grafted in too.
*Romans the consequences. How can oil and water mix ? Paul spells it out. By offering themselves as living sacrifices to God, by challenging the moulding effects of the world's way of thinking in letting the spirit renew us. All of us. Both sides. "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love, honour one another above yourselves." Keep on loving. Don't judge. Don't judge.In ch 14 Paul illustrates his point using the relatively trivial example of food : "3 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling-block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.... 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall."
* Of course Romans is talking to Christian believers. The state of Israel is a secular state. It reasons as a secular state and acts as a secular state. Although it incorporates many who trace their lineage to the very ancient Hebrew peoples, following the God who is talked about in the writings of those peoples is not among the stated aims of the State of Israel. Yet many christians are wanting to claim for this state the blessings of God that come from obedience to and honour of that God. Maybe God will be merciful and extend special blessings to that people group, to the people who live on that particular turf which is the state of Israel. It would be typical of him to do so. BUT and I think this is a big but, I do not think that God exempts that nation state, or any other for that matter, from the general rules of how you treat each other and how you treat others on your territory.
* This does not in any way justify the persecution of ex pat Jews, it should go without saying.
* A few more thoughts about the state of Israel.
One is that I don't know about you, but living with the knowledge that most of your neighbours, including some pretty powerful ones believe that you should not exist does not do much for making a state feel secure and gracious to those neighbours. Maybe the missiles lobbed at Israel have not killed many people. That is purely an accident. Their intention is to try to. How do other nations react to similar threats ? The British with the IRA ?
Another thought is about PTSD. Yes, it is now nearly 3 generations since the Holocaust so under peaceful conditions they should have grown out of the Post Traumatic Stress effects from that. Their traditional enemy, Western Europe since at least medieval times, seems to have at last changed their ways. But as far as I'm aware there has not been any time in the existence of the state of Israel where all it's neighbours have been willing to acknowledge that the state should even exist. Even with Yasser Arafat dead the same spirit still exists. Even for a state that is mature and willing to negotiate this would be a tricky state of things - if such a state exists anywhere ...
* So what are my conclusions ?
- Yes, pray by all means for Israel by all means, but in the sense of asking what His will might be, and that that will will be done. Not telling Him what His will ought to be based on our interpretation of some passages of the Bible taken out of their whole context.
- Lets get this in proportion. For the sake of a couple of paragraphs in Romans we get our knickers in a twist yet the proportionately much bigger emphasis in the NT of caring for the poor, looking after other believers in need, and so on and so on barely even get a look in !! We are such hypocrites!
- Of course not every exile is a punishment. No excuse for taking anything out on expat Jews.
- Lets pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Lets also pray for God's mercy about the ill treatment of "aliens in the land".
- Be very careful about acting judgmentally trying to interpret advice to believers amongst themselves on to secular states and even taking the whole of the advice just selected bits.
- Speak with thoughtfulness and grace about what is a very complicated situation. Pray for both sides and especially for innocent victims of political and violent manoeuvrings on both sides - not that there are actually two neat sides, or clear goodies and baddies amongst them, even the victims.
- Lets stop lecturing each other about issues like this. Is this how God wants us to resolve issues amongst us? Why are we incapable of reasoned debate and thoughtful, even polite ways of talking to each other rather than hectoring anyone who sees it differently from us ? Are any of us willing to put aside our preconceptions and judgmental attitudes and let the spirit renew how we think, having offered our bodies as living sacrifices ? Are we in dread of causing a brother to stumble cos of something trivial that we absolutely insist on ? Are we exhibiting being devoted to one another in brotherly love, honouring one another above ourselves in this matter ? If not we are taking the bits of Romans that suit our biases and totally missing Paul's point.
30/11/2012 found this excellent article.
http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/on-israel-the-church-and-the-politics-of-jesus/
Do you want the lizzyfigures theory of praying for Israel ? It comes from recently re-reading Isaiah and Psalms.
* In the first section of Isaiah when they're IN their OWN land they are treated as the dominant power and judged accordingly - How do they treat the needy? the alien in the land and all that? idolatry, hedonism etc ? As a result of bullying they are handed over to other even bigger bullies to learn their lesson.
* When, later in Isaiah, they're in exile, aliens in someone else's land the words on balance are largely reassuring and comforting.
* The "Songs of Ascent", the very Zionist psalms. They're not theology, they're what they sing in the bus on the way to a pilgrimage - think of fans going to a concert or a football match. They're on holiday, wearing their best clothes, having time with family and friends whilst doing the journey to the feast - they pray for all the good things they can think of for Zion. But that's not theology.
I think we get up the spout praying for Israel cos we forget that they're human like the rest of us. We want them to be something extraordinary cos of our superstitions and hopes and fears. But they're a secular state, doing what secular states do.
* There's one more OT factor that I think biases our attitudes towards what's happening in the middle east. In the OT the Philistines (different pronunciation of Palestinian, the sound P doesn't exist in their language, only ph/f) were the dominant power who kept encroaching on the borders of Israel and pillaging and looting etc. They were therefore "the baddies" who had to be repelled, like Viking invaders in Britain for example. But now the boot is on the other foot. The muslim state that was set up to balance the new Israel is Jordan, but there are the other dwellers in the land who are not catered for under that arrangement and had to cohabit with Israel. This leaves Israel as the dominant power base now and I think we should judge their behaviour with the same rules as what was expected when it was the other way round.
* Jesus, was not at any point a Zionist. ( Kenneth Bailey, "Jesus through Mediterranean Eyes"),
* Romans. Now what a pickle. Paul is trying to restore a balance, trying to reconcile the different sides to understand and tolerate each other and we use these passages to do the opposite. Into the chasm of misunderstanding, as everyone knows, Paul wades in to explain to the Jewish Christians how yes the Gentile Christians are fully paid up bonafide adopted children of God. Yes, horror of horrors, now it's not just sons of Abraham but the adopted kids get all the same rights, and keeping the law is no more adequate than it ever was. Those 8 amazingly detailed chapters where Paul patiently faces the Jewish Christians up to the horror of having to share their God AND accept that the route of access is not Jewishness, but Jesus. Then follow the 3 must more simple and direct chapters where Paul challenges the Gentile view and reminds them just as firmly that there IS something special going on between the Jews God, they did get in first, will have some sort of special deal in the long run and they, the Gentiles need to be pretty grateful that they've been grafted in too.
*Romans the consequences. How can oil and water mix ? Paul spells it out. By offering themselves as living sacrifices to God, by challenging the moulding effects of the world's way of thinking in letting the spirit renew us. All of us. Both sides. "Be devoted to one another in brotherly love, honour one another above yourselves." Keep on loving. Don't judge. Don't judge.In ch 14 Paul illustrates his point using the relatively trivial example of food : "3 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling-block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.... 19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall."
* Of course Romans is talking to Christian believers. The state of Israel is a secular state. It reasons as a secular state and acts as a secular state. Although it incorporates many who trace their lineage to the very ancient Hebrew peoples, following the God who is talked about in the writings of those peoples is not among the stated aims of the State of Israel. Yet many christians are wanting to claim for this state the blessings of God that come from obedience to and honour of that God. Maybe God will be merciful and extend special blessings to that people group, to the people who live on that particular turf which is the state of Israel. It would be typical of him to do so. BUT and I think this is a big but, I do not think that God exempts that nation state, or any other for that matter, from the general rules of how you treat each other and how you treat others on your territory.
* This does not in any way justify the persecution of ex pat Jews, it should go without saying.
* A few more thoughts about the state of Israel.
One is that I don't know about you, but living with the knowledge that most of your neighbours, including some pretty powerful ones believe that you should not exist does not do much for making a state feel secure and gracious to those neighbours. Maybe the missiles lobbed at Israel have not killed many people. That is purely an accident. Their intention is to try to. How do other nations react to similar threats ? The British with the IRA ?
Another thought is about PTSD. Yes, it is now nearly 3 generations since the Holocaust so under peaceful conditions they should have grown out of the Post Traumatic Stress effects from that. Their traditional enemy, Western Europe since at least medieval times, seems to have at last changed their ways. But as far as I'm aware there has not been any time in the existence of the state of Israel where all it's neighbours have been willing to acknowledge that the state should even exist. Even with Yasser Arafat dead the same spirit still exists. Even for a state that is mature and willing to negotiate this would be a tricky state of things - if such a state exists anywhere ...
* So what are my conclusions ?
- Yes, pray by all means for Israel by all means, but in the sense of asking what His will might be, and that that will will be done. Not telling Him what His will ought to be based on our interpretation of some passages of the Bible taken out of their whole context.
- Lets get this in proportion. For the sake of a couple of paragraphs in Romans we get our knickers in a twist yet the proportionately much bigger emphasis in the NT of caring for the poor, looking after other believers in need, and so on and so on barely even get a look in !! We are such hypocrites!
- Of course not every exile is a punishment. No excuse for taking anything out on expat Jews.
- Lets pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Lets also pray for God's mercy about the ill treatment of "aliens in the land".
- Be very careful about acting judgmentally trying to interpret advice to believers amongst themselves on to secular states and even taking the whole of the advice just selected bits.
- Speak with thoughtfulness and grace about what is a very complicated situation. Pray for both sides and especially for innocent victims of political and violent manoeuvrings on both sides - not that there are actually two neat sides, or clear goodies and baddies amongst them, even the victims.
- Lets stop lecturing each other about issues like this. Is this how God wants us to resolve issues amongst us? Why are we incapable of reasoned debate and thoughtful, even polite ways of talking to each other rather than hectoring anyone who sees it differently from us ? Are any of us willing to put aside our preconceptions and judgmental attitudes and let the spirit renew how we think, having offered our bodies as living sacrifices ? Are we in dread of causing a brother to stumble cos of something trivial that we absolutely insist on ? Are we exhibiting being devoted to one another in brotherly love, honouring one another above ourselves in this matter ? If not we are taking the bits of Romans that suit our biases and totally missing Paul's point.
30/11/2012 found this excellent article.
http://pastorjonathanmartin.com/uncategorized/on-israel-the-church-and-the-politics-of-jesus/
Sunday, 4 November 2012
A Rant : Legitimate needs, Non-legitimate grumbling.
A Rant : Legitimate needs, Non-legitimate grumbling
Who can sit in judgement on his brother ? - no one. Who ought to exercise right judgement ? - every one.
I've been meditating lately in Exodus. They got out of Egypt. They got across the Red Sea. They had a huge party. Everything was going swimmingly. Moses had obeyed God, conquered his fear of talking and faced up to Pharaoh. He'd done it. Now he was tired but he was out in a familiar and comforting environment for him, he'd lived in the desert. But he'd taken on these people. He didn't remember that they were in what was totally new to them, and he was still in charge. He'd led them out. That was only the end of the beginning. He forgot they needed water. 3 days in and it's desperate. It's an oversight. He should have thought of it.
But instead of asking politely "what should we do about this, Moses ?" it was a perfectly legitimate need after all, instead they lurched straight into grumbling and destructive negativity. In the end it's the sin of grumbling that is remembered rather than Moses' mistake.
Who can sit in judgement on his brother ? - no one. Who ought to exercise right judgement ? - every one.
I've been meditating lately in Exodus. They got out of Egypt. They got across the Red Sea. They had a huge party. Everything was going swimmingly. Moses had obeyed God, conquered his fear of talking and faced up to Pharaoh. He'd done it. Now he was tired but he was out in a familiar and comforting environment for him, he'd lived in the desert. But he'd taken on these people. He didn't remember that they were in what was totally new to them, and he was still in charge. He'd led them out. That was only the end of the beginning. He forgot they needed water. 3 days in and it's desperate. It's an oversight. He should have thought of it.
But instead of asking politely "what should we do about this, Moses ?" it was a perfectly legitimate need after all, instead they lurched straight into grumbling and destructive negativity. In the end it's the sin of grumbling that is remembered rather than Moses' mistake.
I love
the new church movement. From my first experiences in Lincoln in the mid
70s onwards. But there have maybe been oversights along the way. How do
we do mid course flight correction, but without condoning the grumbling
that is asking for it? The needs are legit. The grumbling isn't. Moses
gave them the water, it would have been pretty churlish not to. But the
deeper need of learning how to communicate need in appropriate ways,
providing channels for it to be able to be dealt with took much longer
to set up. It's not just getting folks out of slavery, it's getting the
slavery out of them.
I can't pretend that there hasn't been some pretty dreadful things happen in "churches" and done by some of their leaders. There are some pretty stupid and pointless or petty things too. Maybe there are inherent weaknesses, even sin, built into how we structure "church". The needs/demands are on the whole legitimate. But how can we deal with that in healthy ways? Ways that will build up, not break down ? How can we say that there is hurt and abuse and manipulation and ask for it to be dealt with, but in a way that is not grumbling and focussed on negativity?
I've read a few blogs lately on the subject of "church" and the fact that some people are finding a place that suits them better in what they are calling the wilderness. Some are loving and thoughtful expressions of wanting to walk with God despite not being able to walk with "institutionalised" expressions of "church". But some of them have some pretty negative, judgemental attitudes running along within them too. The need is legit. But the grumbling isn't. How do we honestly face up to the failings and fragility of "church" but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater ? Like, you really think you'd be better off back in Egypt ? Like we founded new churches specially to leave you to die of thirst in a wilderness ? Like we really need to smash each other's efforts with friendly fire - haven't we got enough to deal with with the enemy?
This isn't anything new. But are we capable of finding new ways of dealing with it ?
Moses needed to face his responsibilities.
The People needed to learn how to express their needs in appropriate ways.
40 years earlier Moses had had to learn that you can't just deal with things by lashing out, however legitimate the argument.
The People needed to learn the same lessons. Yes they were damaged goods, they'd been bullied and oppressed. But they too needed to learn how to act like free people. They'd got to grow up too.
Lord help us. Lord help us.
Saturday, 3 November 2012
Story : "Over-heard"
Over-heard
Clay : "Oo ! Oy ! Ow ! Wad you doi'g ?"
Potter :"Kneading."
Clay : "Where'd by sboud?"
Potter :"You're going to have a lip instead."
Clay : "Bud I'b a dea bod."
Potter :"A dea bod?"
Clay : "Yed, bouri'g dea indo gubs 'n bugs."
Potter :"You're not going to be a tea pot any more. You're going to be a vase."
Clay : "Bud I wadda be dike de odders 'n derve."
Potter :"You'll still serve but differently. You'll hold flowers and cheer people up. We'll put roses in you."
Clay : "Roded. ... hm... Grydadububs?"
Potter :"Yes."
Clay : "Bink ? Ded ? Gurble?"
Potter :"I don't think they come in that colour."
I
may see myself as disabled. I may miss what I used to do. But God has
the right to mould me to use me to serve in new ways where I'm not
handicapped at all.
Liz Figures from Isaiah ch
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