Coveting

I had a thought recently about coveting. It’s always puzzled me as at the level of just being envious of something that someone else owns it seems different from the other commandments and yes, “just” a heart issue.

However I was observing the behaviour of our 2 dogs. The least dominant one was lying on something and the other decided she wanted it. She stood there, a bit too close, clearly in eye line until the less dominant complied and reluctantly gave up the coveted position. The more dominant is capable of getting the less dominant to concede almost anything just by staring or standing too close for comfort. I’ve never seen any actual violence between them yet the power relationship is clear.

I’ve come to believe that coveting has more to do with coercion and power relationships than just heart desire.

Romance ?

My comment on this blog post.  http://tanyamarlow.com/when-jesus-wont-be-your-boyfriend-guest-post/#comment-71299


I think that expecting romance all the time is a very nineteenth century escapist dream. It's a nice extra, but for most relationships in most parts of the world through most of history it's a luxury.  Notice it's the man who has to love his wife, and even there the word isn't eros or even a word that means romance but the very pragmatic agape which is the love expected of all christians. Many women have to think first about ensuring themselves a stable future in cultures where women don't get paid for their work.

Many of us don't feel that much. Others feel an awful lot. There has to be a place for all of us. Maybe we can gain some measure of freedom of feelings and some people definitely need to get all that under control !

However I think in the Bible God does introduce the idea of romance in how he speaks to us. It comes in the song of songs of course, but also in the prophets which is pretty ironic. They've been a chosen people behaving badly and are about to get violently chucked out of the promised land - and lo and behold there are these lovely romantic bits in Isaiah and Zephenaiah - reminding us that's how he thinks about us all along and we got hung up on law - well, not doing it, and the rituals.

I think the same happened in protestantism a bit. We got a bit hung up on being right, truth, hard work and the movement to bring romance into worship has had a prophetic feel to it. BUT it's only part of the story and to make it the whole story is to get into and equal unbalance the other way. I was part of that generation who were thrilled to get a little bit of freedom and feeling in worship but I didn't want it to pendulum swing to the opposite !

I got caught on something similar but on the other end of the pendulum swing. I came under condemnation because I don't read the Bible every day. I just don't manage it. I can't cope with a new idea every day. Until there were the Jeff Lucas daily notes I couldn't bear them either. But when I do read it I read a whole lot, study it and then think it through - which can take months. There has to be a place for both. Diversity of approaches should be seen as a strength in protestantism instead of clamping down on it.

Condemnation is not a sign of the Holy Spirit at work.

Thank you for so honestly sharing Jenn.

Thoughts : The Reform

My reply to a blog post about was the reform really needed, is it still needed ?

( NB sorry I can't call the RC the catholic ie universal church, I'm part of the holy, universal and apostolic church, and the RCs won't even let me share the family meal with them. So now do you think I'm anti Catholic ? Not at all anti catholics. I do have problems with the Vatican these days - voila, cards on table )

Can I start with a question.  - If you lived at Luther's time, would you feel at ease in the RC as it was ?

When I lived in Britain I had no problems with the RC. I think we have made great strides in living together, and the RC, as  practiced in England at least, has taken Vatican II to heart. Of course there are some key doctrines that mean that I would feel ill at ease being a regular member of an RC congregation, but I have happy fellowship with people who are RC members and I can feel fairly trusting of many of their senior leaders. I have been living here in France for 20 years now and have actively encouraged and participated in inter-church gatherings and what I thought was ecumenism. However I have had a number of encounters that have challenged my view.

* One was not so much an encounter as a discovery. Following something that sounded a bit odd to me, said by a bishop on the radio, I looked up ecumenism in a french dictionary. The bishop was right. It means meeting with others who call themselves christians to try to draw them back to the true church. So much for mutual respect.
* I heard several people (first hand and on the radio) talk about the appalling and life affecting damage done to them by their upbringing at the hands of nuns and priests, or in fundamentalist families - the worst being the consequent inability to be able to give or feel love to varying degrees. (Well, fundamentalist families of all sorts not just RC can do their fair share of damage, so I won't count that one too much).
* I also got "evangelised" by a catholic fundamentalist. (same note about fundamentalists)
* I wasn't allowed to take communion at a cousin's wedding. Some of the family could go forward, the rest were left in their seats as infidels, outcasts, heretics despite them sharing a living faith. Then I couldn't take communion at an interfaith gathering.
* When bishops have got wind of inter-church activity they have either directly banned it or highly discouraged it here.
* On the radio the bishops and other spokesmen frequently talk as if they are the only christians and that they speak for all.
* Here, when and if the reformation is mentioned, it is frequently in negative terms. The govt have roundly condemned massacres and ethnic cleansing in Armenia for example, and the Shoa, but anniversary of St Bartholomew's day, or repeal of the Edict of Nantes - not a peep. That period of time is euphemistically known as "The Wars of Religion". Like there was really 2 sides to the wide scale massacres which happened up and down the country not just in Paris ? Eventually some protestants took up arms, but it was very latterly. The country went from an estimated 43% protestant (including much of the royal court) to less than 3%. (figures quoted by the historian Frank Ferand on the radio station Europe 1)
* I was disgusted by the rank ignorance and flagrant homophobia shown by the very well supported demonstration in paris a few weeks ago against the marriage for all bill. My own jury is still out on that issue, but the attitudes shown by ordinary men and women at that event sickened me. They are not just a few extremists. They are the French RC by and large.
* As you well know France is home to a good number of Marist pilgrimage sites. They make a tidy profit. I can't talk about how I feel about how ignorance and superstition and idolatry is being encouraged, it makes me too sad and angry.

On the other hand I should mention a few exceptions - the Bishop of Lyon, a number of very brave and kind priests and some nuns, Abbé Pierre and the continued movement for the care of the homeless, a certain number of RC writers and broadcasters.

*****

As a protestant who didn't know I was protesting at all till I lived here I find this a can be a difficult atmosphere to live in, as you can imagine. I don't go for debate. I just water seeds of faith in individuals as I find them. I treat them as fellow christians, ie as I would want them to treat me.

But the fact is I live in a country that looked at the reformation and decided it didn't want it. There are many many consequences. The French out do us hands down in certain areas of excellence, that's not really what I'm talking about.
 
The one that strikes me the most is that in my observation social reform was and can still be much slower than in Protestant countries.

* I was amazed when we first came 20 years ago to find that the only decent books on the bookshop children's shelves were translations from English, German, or one of the Scandinavian languages. Many homes had no or few books in until Harry Potter came on the scene. At least communist homes would have a couple of books.
* Even now, to my knowledge, there is still no school in the whole of France for Autistic children. A good number have no specialised help at all, and some just have to stay home cos no one wants them.
* The hospice movement is tiny and still new.
* The state has no specialised places or staff for interviewing children who have been abused or need help to talk about things. A few magistrates who have been to England have set up charities to pay for a room in a hospital where they can talk to children.
*   Take the fact that there was never any real grass roots labour movement here except the communist party. I will acknowledge that they have done some excellent things, but their aproach is so conflictual that they can't build something.Of course labour relations are far from perfect in Britain but at least there is, or at least used to be, far more labour representation, far more negotiation etc etc as a result of the labour movement which in good part came out of the protestant church movements.

I can't go on. The list is endless of things that have been proved and work and have not been introduced just because "It's the French Way". I've heard that phrase over and again in debates about these things. A debate on the value of getting parents into schools with statistics to prove it's value. All the debaters were in a agreement, but they were all in agreement at the end that it won't happen because It's not the French Way. This makes the inferiority complex worse not better. There are some things that are better here of course, there are 2 sides to everything, but I'm mainly quoting what I hear the french saying about themselves to themselves on France Inter, France Culture, and Europe 1.

Now to protestantism and protesting and division.

Clearly, or clearly to me, fraternal rupture when it is to do with disputes, personality clash, and so on is very very sad and unnecessary.

However split, when it becomes the only alternative, can be healthy. I see it like divorce. I hate divorce. I think it's dreadful. But I'm divorced and grateful for it. The law of the land recognised that I should not be obliged to live with someone who rendered my life so difficult. I still believe in marriage. Likewise, sometimes because of serious false doctrine (not trivialities about details of practice) or sin, I think rupture is needed where reconciliation has been tried and rejected. Luther tried and was rejected. Puritans tried and were rejected. Methodists tried and were rejected.  I now also feel that sometimes split for cultural reason is necessary. Take a minor example. Some people were upset at a parish church that they divided the morning service into 2 services even though they weren't packed to the doors, but I think it's not rupture it's growth. They did the early Prayer book and later Family Service with monthly joint - both services are doing better. That church had the courage to face the fact that people have different needs and ways to express themselves and that's ok. There is even one of the churches in the group that is openly charismatic. That's ok with the others. The vicars can still meet together and support each other. They can still have joint events and publicise each others events and accept some coming and going by worshipers among the different churches in the group. One has no disabled access, but another meets in a centre for the disabled. That's ok. This church is rare. Often these different needs and views have to be met by rupture because of the rigidity of the structures they are in or of those in power.

I am now proud of being a protestant. I think - the more churches the merrier. There is need for as many churches as possible, and why not of all different flavours, aproaches and outlooks. I was in a denominational church and the elderly, who had been the youth of that church once, liked it the way it was and didn't want change. I'm not angry with them. Perhaps they were being a little selfish - who am I to judge? The polite thing was not to discretely try to change them, but to make church as we saw it elsewhere, just like they had done in their day. Some were threatened but surprisingly some gave us their blessing.

Now I look and see that each wave of new church and new christian movement brings something new and refreshing to our perspective of God and christianity and how to live it. I'm proud of it. If the reformation brought reform. Much needed reform. It's still bringing reform. Still needed. Yes there have been and will be some excesses along the way as the pendulum swings. Should we try to grab on to the pendulum to try to stop it ? Should we berate the new pendulum riders as heretics ? Calvin's words, spoken in the context of Geneva at that time were not so odd, they were the pendulum. Calvin-ISM of course has done as much damage as lots of -ISMs including the recent health and wealth movements for example which started out as a healthy re-balancing and became an overbalance. Every movement that is a prophetic movement in it's own time and context can be a curse when applied rigidly elsewhere. Even Jesus did not say the same to everyone, even saying apparent opposites in very different situations. He never called the ordinary crowds whitewashed tombs or a brood of vipers! Neither should we address some of the fiery challenges of Finney or Calvin to the ordinary man off the street Alpha course !

Thank you for bringing up this debate. I hope you find my contributions fruitful. x

“Where is the temple ?”

If I had ever managed to write a book about my time as a worship leader and my thoughts on the subject the title would have been “Where is the temple ?” That seems to me to be  key – where we imagine the temple to be. 

As long as we think it’s a building we’ll think the people who officiate there are the priests so everyone else must be the visiting pilgrims. Where as we know that we are the temple of the HS and we are each clearly handed priestly duties such as offerings, sacrifices, praise and intercession. There is no link in any way in the NT between the role of leaders – (and there are leaders, with clear roles) and the priestly duties we are given !

a collection of some thoughts about the bible

some thoughts about the bible


my own personal view point
 

i'm coming at "the bible" from a new point of view for me. i've read it believed it and acted on it for years. but it's been turned upside down, put back to front. this period of my life if feel i've been experiencing things and am now finding them in "the bible".
i'm coming at "the bible" from the perspective of having spent nearly a decade 1996 to 2006, not being able to read it much. i was too poorly. but during those years someone walked very close with me and gave me an utter conviction of his presence with me. despite old fashioned loneliness amongst other things he was always there and while everything i have done and am has been called into question in one way or another he was a simple accepting reassuring strengthening presence. i was very socially isolated in practice nursing my sick kids and bipolar husband, trying to keep up work and church membership. and a lot of misunderstandings made me even more lonely. but i remember him feeling so close that i could almost touch him. i could barely formulate "prayers". in fact i felt God told me to stop trying to.
i've only been to church a few times since 2003 cos i cant get our much and i did manage to get thrown out of 2 churches and a mission agency cos of the misunderstandings. but tho i am grateful for all the years i had of fellowship and teaching i'm also enjoying the opportunity to come at things afresh. my view of God has got bigger not smaller. i'm enjoying asking questions and exploring ideas. in this context looking at the bible from new is proving a fascinating experience. i cant see it as chapter and verses any more either. for the moment i cant handle words that have had religious ideas strapped on to them either.
i've been gripped by the people in it. i've been moved by the vivid accounts of clinical depression of naomi, chronic illness of job. i've been touched by a law system that repeats so often that it is available for the foreigner, the weak, the poor, the fatherless, and woe betide those who oppress them. letter after letter that emphasise, even more than theology, the practical outworking of loving God and loving loving others. generosity. and honesty. my giddy aunt we dont know the half of it. i've been moved by my own understanding of myself as a sinner based not on doing bad things but my concept of God's holiness being ever less like a sterilised hospital and more like freshly driven snow. sparkling, light, luminous, exciting, inviting, with a hint of danger. despite me basically being a "nice" person, and liking "niceness" it seems empty compared with that dazzling life giving power. the dynamic of the holy spirit. the God who "talks". who" talks" through his writings too, and "talks" in person. it comes to me over and over as i'm reading it in hungry gulps - if ever anyone was so in earnest to try to communicate, if ever his hearers so thick ....
and through it all the person of Jesus walks through the page and i recognise that presence with me. the one who touched people and noticed them and accepted meal invitations where no "decent christian" would be at ease is the one who i have had walk by my side, whispering in my weary heart and clumsy mind - "do not fear for i am with you". that same word over and again, along with a conviction of being held like a baby bird in the palm of a large workman's hand. i've been moved by the utter dedication of Jesus to people, not in a dry "ought to" sort of way but in the way of someone who has genuine care and genuine authority. i'm not discouraged by my pathetic little efforts, everyone has to start somewhere, but inspired by the profoundness of his understanding of how we tick and what we are really.
i'm such a beginnner. i feel i've got everything to learn.
i feel i've been pretty ham fisted in learning to express myself but i hope i'm learning. i hope my clumsiness hasn't put you off. it's mainly over excitedness. i'll calm down eventually. or maybe i wont. i'm an enthusiast.

i find it very hard to think about "the bible" as just one concept these days. it isn't a book, its such a hodge podge of a collection of documents that i think each needs looking at in it's own right, or at least within it's grouping. i don't know why the letter of james wasn't included. i don't have a problem when people see Jesus from a variety of perspectives.
i think some of the critics of "the bible" have a point because we've made claims that "the bible" cant realistically live up to. i think some find that christians stick in their craw for other reasons, and knocking the bible is a good way to upset them and put them on the defensive.
i do have a big problem with the more dogmatic churches that say you have to interpret this, this way, especially those with fundamentalist tendancies. i have problems with how they speak to those who dont agree with them too. thats why the creation evolution debate sends me batty. i think the science fundamentalists are just as rude and patronising as the so called creationists. i freely admit i have personal issues with fundamentalists whose negativity and rigidity and emphasis on the trivial while missing out on the the essentials did a lot of damage in my family (tho wonderfully there is a thread of faith that continues like a river that's gone underground). i have issues with people having to be proved right and having to put others down in order to do so. i've had to back off some words that are trigger words - like "evangelical" "bible" "gospel" - not that i don't believe them but they have come to have such negative connotations.
here in france the way many people talk on the radio they really believe that if you believe any of the bible you have to be a cretin. they get really angry about creation of any sort being taught in schools in the us. the concepts of bible have got caught up with images of george w bush and his gung-ho attitude to war and god, and his resemblance to a monkey when he smiles. and with black gospel music. many catholics, even nominal ones still wouldn't touch the bible with a barge pole - they've been taught it's too dangerous and only a priest should look at it. they really believe it. people in the 21st century still believe that.
as usual i want the best of both worlds. i think the polarisation of these debates make for stupidity. i think the documents of the bible, as originally written, are probably a pretty accurate account of what they are an account of but they don't claim to be a world history and i don't think they are.

i read the daily bible notes by jeff lucas, lucas on life every day and he's said more than once that there are bits of the bible he has problems with, not cos he doesnt believe that they're true, more cos he's worried they might be. and he freely admits that there are also large bits he doesnt begin to understand. his main point is to apply what we can believe and trust which comes back to other issues like how you see God etc i think that's the nearest i can get to where i'm at. pressure to believe and act on things you're not sure about can be very damaging long term even if it ensures a bit of short term orthodoxy. believing things that are wrong can also be very damaging.

we need to be consistent and scientific about these things - what sort of source documents etc are we willing to accept to make them "authentic" history ? which news paper account would we accept as valid of current news ? if we're going to accept for example that homer's accounts of the trojan wars are accurate with no other corroboration, or the earliest reports on the sayings of confuscious which date a good 500 years after he died, or the accounts of the life and battles of julius ceasar written by julius ceasar starring julius ceasar ... ? in comparison the sayings of socrates written down by plato who modified them to fit with his own teachings is pretty good evidence cos at least we know the author's motives and we know there was a direct link with the original person.

 

 why i accept the bible as evidence about itself.

 

* as far as i can tell even opponents will now admit that they are def the best historical records around as historical records go, by historians standards, according to my sister who worked in an archeology  lab for a while. even if you don't want to live your life by what's in them it seems likely that they do say what they say and a lot of what they say may well have happened, or the way the story is told is an accurate representation of the point of view of the particular people group who is telling the story.

* 4 accounts, written within the life time of many of the first hand witnesses is a pretty strong hand. one of those accounts seems to be written by an independent researcher, sponsored by a non-jew, who interviewed eyewitnesses himself, even the socially outcast, even women, beggars, prostitutes, collaborators with enemy powers, is really quite a coup. the descriptions of the romans for example are consistent with all the other things we know about the romans. all the other writers knew each other. they were related or had been disciples together. as far as i know only luke set out to write the complete biography or Jesus and the early "church". all the other documents and letters fill in each other, fill in for where there are gaps in teaching. james is not going to double up the teachings of paul or peter. they worked together, stayed accountable to each other.

 
* the alternative is believing popes ect i'm sorry i don't trust a pope as far as i could throw one, however much i might admire individual ones.
* i think the archeology backs up a lot of the bible not the popes. where there is no archelology - (and that is a good bit of the early part of the bible), this is typical of many nomadic, low ecological foot print people groups. much of what we know about groups like tuaregs and bushmen etc is based on their own memories and that is not called into question. in order to make a lasting impact on the land scape you either have to do the same thing in the same place for a very long time leaving field, road, dwelling, cultural patterns etc that we can guess from OR you have to have a lot of power and money to be able to build a monument. stonehenge couldn't have been built by a nice little village community sharing and being kind to each other any more than the pyramids were.
* i think if a theology still has to be expressed in latin it's probably dodgy.
* i think some "fundamentalist" teachings are as arrogant and pompous and erroneous as the popes. based on out of date translations of the bible and applied with ignorant and bigoted blinkered rigidity. so called "literal" application appalls me cos it's not what it claims to be. they apply one interpretation of one "verse" as it suits them without even looking at it's own context let alone its historical context. how could the teachings about race have become so prevalent amongst those groups based on a very vague misinterpretation of one verse in genesis when the whole law reiterates over and again that foreigners are to have more or less the same legal rights and obligations as natives, let alone all the teaching about equality in the NT.
* the evangelicals didn't actually break away from this rot till in the 40s and it took much longer to root it out of groups that call themselves evangelical or pentecostal. i'm an evangelical in the sense that luther invented the word - someone who has responded to the good news off my own bat not cos a church has told me i've got to go via it as an intermediary.
* what does the bible actually claim about itself ? - nothing like what the people who try to use it as incantations and spells claim. nor what some groups who use bits of it to justify their own politics. as far as i can see "word of God" is an expression that means several things not just the written collection of documents. for goodness sake why do have to use the words in latin. scripture just means written down. ok, lets say writings so it doesn't have religious overtones. bible - greek for collection or library. why are we so superstitious about it ?
* it claims to be a true account of what happened. as it was originally written that seems quite likely. where there's a difference there's often the alternative present too - eg the "chronicles" are the account of national events kept by the priests, an expurgated version of history. but the two volumes referred to as "kings" are a much fuller version, no holds barred, no taboos account of all the kings' faults as well as their strengths. as it is, it's all a much more coherent account of a nation's history than anything we have in britain so far back, so who do we think we are to pull it to pieces ? some of it is written down from an older oral record , that's no guess work, it actually says when things start to be from a written record in genesis . (it also mentions when the bronze age arrived to their peoples.)
words used in the bible to describe itself : 



1)  "the scriptures" - always referring to the old testament. they didn't even necessarily see the OT as a whole - sometimes the prophetic books are referred to separately from the historical and devotional documents : the law, and the prophets.
2) "the good news of Jesus" . gospel, ev-angel - latin and greek for good news - a common expression at the time - lots of wars - people would wait for an angel - messenger , to announce the progress in the latest international conflict. if the news was good he was called a herald of good news : angel + ev . which would be announced or proclaimed - the word we translate by preach, in a public place. this tradition was carried on in britain with the town cryer and we now call it a news bulletin, still communicated by an announcer (who wasn't present) or a reporter (who was).
3) "the teaching of the apostles". which is what it says.

how we use the bible, and what it is not.

* it's not a book of sayings. There's only 2 documents in the whole  bible collection that are - proverbs and ecclesiastes. anywhere else we can't expect to just dip in and make full sense of any extract without bothering to read the rest. things are written in the context of a family saga, or a biography, a royal dynasty, a national crisis, a personal letter, a systematic explanation, a letter resolving a dispute or correcting error. so we can't use quoting a bible verse like a magic spell in a situation. we have to quote it intelligently

* not expecting everything in our current translation to make complete sense. The bible should, in my opinion be treated with the same circumspect respect as any historical documents.  I would not like to lay odds as to whether the word translated "day" in my Bible means 24 hours, or general time period in the original ? it changes nothing about the fact that comes up all through the Bible - that God created the heavens and the earth, so why get our knickers in a twist about it ? did they thread camel thread (like threading the silk, or cotton into your needle) with difficulty or was it an actual camel through a small gate ?. these are things that are not central to salvation and i can hold on an open hand.

* People talk about details in the bible being inconsistent, but they're not being consistent themselves. the same ppl might accept hieroglyphics, or julius ceasar's writings to be a reliable account even though they're open to a huge amount of interpretation, and may have had elements of political propaganda too in their own day.

A thought, concretewords : 'The Instrument'

The instrument


I remember it well, 40 years ago and more. Sandals, short socks, shorts, long thin legs. Thick brown hair in a pony tail. The annual ritual as soon as we arrive. Jumping out of the car. Running to promenade to look. Little brother trailing behind shouting because he can't keep up and I won't wait. 

It's not there yet. Oh.

Trekking back up the cliff to our holiday flat. Running down again. Traipsing back up. Running down. Dancing back. The poster has gone up at last. They're here ! 

Each summer my family went to Cromer, a decaying English seaside town. I didn't understand that the paint was peeling till I was older. We loved the place like you love your pet, regardless. My Dad played tennis and we went to the CSSM. 

All weathers, I was there.  Damp from the sand seeping through the seat of my slacks. North Sea wind down the neck of my anorak. I never cared. I was enthralled. I loved every single minute. From the Bible study groups in the morning, to the Beach Special service and games in the afternoon I drank it all in. Always last to leave. Often too timid to chat, but unable to tear myself away.  

I didn't go to Sunday School. Well, my friend Wendy had invited me to hers in the parish church, but my Mum and Dad didn't go there so I thought I wouldn't be allowed. I made up for it one marvelous week each year on the beach. I loved the songs. I wrote down the words in a notebook when I got home. 

"Wide, wide as the ocean, high as the heavens above, 
Deep, deep as the deepest sea is my saviour's love."

I dreamed, well no, I was too shy, I hardly dared even dream it, but in my heart of hearts I longed to be with those musicians strumming away so everyone could join in. It was nearly an ache.

*****

For my 14th birthday I asked for a guitar.

I sat on the edge of my bed for hours on end trying and trying the chords in the manual till my fingers gradually gained the leather hard tips which make the strings bite less.

"I, though so unworthy,
Still am a child of his care"

The next year on holiday I took my guitar and my book of choruses...

... and said nothing.

And the following year. And the next.

What went on in that intervening time is another story which I hope I will get to tell you one day. Suffice it to say I met with Jesus in a new way and finally joined the team. I saw God at work, made friends, learned things, had fun, met kids, and even met my husband. And I got my heart's desire. Year after year battling north east wind, sea gulls, high tide, tractors, bin lorries, helicopter, come rain and shine I accompanied the songs. Every guitar I had finished up with sand in it. Of course then I couldn't just stop at beach missions !

All told I led worship for nearly 30 years in many ways, in many places. Never wearied of it.

*****

Nowadays the guitar is stowed away. It's been there for nearly 10 years. I struggle to hold the strings down. I've more or less lost my voice. The song books are lined up on the bookshelf, yellowed and worn. Songs left half written, untried, in the file.

But the deep urge burns on. It had got under my skin before I was even aware of what worship was. 8 year old, 9 year old, 10, 11, 12, praying along with the special prayer, year after year. No follow up, no teaching, no understanding. Not yet. Just a gut certainty. And even now it goes on. A smouldering passion. Full of questions yet as certain as it ever has been. 

Not withered by age or crushed by life.
Bigger than the instruments. 
Broader than the songs. 
Deeper than the services

It keeps my heart beating. 
It keeps me marching. 
It keeps me praising God regardless of what's going on. 

"For His word teaches me
That his love reaches me
EVERYWHERE"

*****

PS  I wrote this comment on someone's blog and felt like adding it here :-

"I would have thought it trite to say this in the past, but it really is about worshiping God in the end. You may not be able to play the flute but you’re carrying on giving praise to God with your blog – I’m sure it’s in the psalms – “praise him on the trumpet the psaltery and blog”. Me too. Whether I can ever play my instrument again or not I’m not going to let it stop me praising Jesus."

*****
 
Have guitar, will travel

Indoors, outdoors, church, Town Hall, 
Nightclub, school and shopping mall. 
Mid Atlantic, mountain peak, 
Forest glade, car park, beach.

Solo voice or with a band,
Every Sunday, one night stand.
For a thousand, for a few, 
New plastic chairs, old wooden pew.

Praise the Lord ! and Glory Be !
Simple awestruck bended knee.
Any method, any time, 
Any place and any rhyme.

Thank you Jesus, I'm so glad,
Thank you for the fun I've had,
Thank you for the joy and tears,
You've been faithful all these years. 

(Have had such fun writing this ditty. Thinking of so many memories. Even the hard ones, God worked anyway.)

Is God Speaking ?

Question :

Hi liz How do you know the voice if god when he speaks to u and differentiate it from your own thoughts ive started journaling and find i can get into a flow but then doubts creep in as to weather ive been hearing gods voice or my own thoughts x

part 1

this is a really good question that has caused much debate for centuries :-)

i did a little study once on "the word of God"

so how does God speak to us ?

well first of all he speaks, he doesn't hint. there's no point going reading things into circumstances the majority of the time. same with finding obscure verses and reading something into them that they're not really saying. we still have superstitious practices that hang around even in christian circles that we don't notice cos that's how our society sees things.

things that are referred to as the word of God in the bible -

first and foremost is the person of Jesus. Jesus is God talking to us - john ch1 - and the word was make flesh and dwelt among us. hebrews 1 "in the past God spoke through the prophets, now he has spoken to us through his son." .therefore we need to copy how he behaved and obeying things he said is the one way to be dead certain you're in God's will. 

* read the eye witness accounts about him - the gospels (literally -good news, greek evangel) 

* mull over his advice and his example. beware over spiritualised interpretations that take things to mean something they don't mean in context. 

* DO IT ! jesus told a story about two building constructors - one set his house in a difficult place to build cos it was on rock, another chose a nice flat area that had a sand base but was probably the flood plain of the river. the storms came, as they do sometimes even if it's only once in every 100 years, and the house built on the sand was washed away. jesus interpreted this story saying that the one who builds on rock is someone who hears jeus's words AND DOES THEM. the other guy heared too but didn't put into practice what he heard. his life was saved but all his life achievements were wasted.

'the bible' is referred to as God speaking. well, lets qualify that statement. the word the bible does not exist in the bible. it means library or a collection of documents in latin and talks about the full collection - old and new. it wasn't used till years after the final documents were written, when people were trying to gather together all the letters and biographies that had been written for the early church. what it is refered to is as the scriptures (latin for writings) is also called the law and the prophets. in hebrews ch 1 it says "in the past God spoke through the prophets, now he has spoken to us through his son." Jesus speaks about everything written in the law and the prophets being fulfilled in him. Jesus treats the ot writings as God talking. in the nt they refer to the teaching of the apostles. at the time it was probably in person at first and passed on as an oral record, but very quickly things were written down and letters would be copied out and passed on from church to church, though they would be too expensive for individuals to own mostly - it was going to be well over a thousand years before the arrival of paper and the printing press.

* we're told to be like a reliable workman in studying and applying it.
* jesus only had the Old Testament, but he learned that very carefully. The quotes he uses when he was tempted by Satan in the desert was probably a "Sunday School" lesson he memorised.

you have to get the bible teachings in place to be able to really work out what is God's general guidelines - no point praying about something and expecting an individual word when in fact it's already more than clear in the bible ( tho read it for yourself - don't just base it on one teaching on one verse) if in the slightest doubt about what the bible is saying about something go and ask Don Fortune. he's read the bible all through each year since he became a christian and he has a careful and balanced approach to things.

if you are feeding yourself with bible and having an attitude of worship and respect to God some of your thoughts will come in line with God's way of seeing things and be naturally more in line with his.

*however you define the word of God it's described in ephesians as a sharp two edged sword, hebrews adds that it can cut between bone and marrow  - that's a scalpel in my language, so don't treat it as empty words ie you have been warned !!! 

thirdly there is god speaking through the holy spirit usually explaining, encouraging, guiding, leading and so on. this is called prophecy when it's another person speaking on behalf of God, or it may be another prompting like a word of knowledge or of wisdom, the interpretation of a message given in an unknown language, a gift of faith to have a certainty about some thing that God is going to do that we can't really know. we'll go on to hearing god speak for yourself next.



part 2

one factor in learning about god speaking is finding out the difference between hearing God speaking and your own imagination.

first practice using your imagination. God gave it to you. we are told to love the lord your God with all your heart with all your soul with all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbour as you love yourself; there's nothing wrong with thinking through.


try reading a passages in the bible and imagine it with real people. ask what happens if ...

get used to what your imagination sounds like. enjoy using it. then you wont pretend it's God speaking cos you'll recognise it, and you'll recognise that it's a really useful tool that God can use to help you understand things, and to therefore speak to you through it.



part 3
 
recognising God's voice - my sheep recognise my voice and follow me - jesus in the good shepherd passage.

what about noting down all the times you ca think of when you were dead certain it was God who spoke to you and it was proved right. would you recognise that voice again.? it is unlikely it was a voice in your ear, more likely in your spirit. did you act on it ? you get familiar with god's voice - but that doesn't exclude ever getting it wrong. you build in confidence.

what was the fruit of hearing what ever it was ? usually when i hear God i feel relieved, or peaceful. 

here's an example : over and over again he's given me the words "do not fear for i am with you". sometimes i have felt fed up - that's not a very exciting message. i had it for the first time at my baptism and its come through all sorts of people over the years. i thought it was cos i can be a frightened person - little lizzymouse. i never guessed that it would mean i was going to be in all sorts of scary situations. God knew that I would need reassuring that the fact that things were bad wasn't a sign that i'd done something wrong, far from it because he had promised he would be with me. we were skint for years and years and years but God provided everything that we needed (tho not always what we fancied) but he wanted us living amongst others in need and living like them. we even lived a few blocks away from an al quaeda terrorist cell for a while - blokes from the same mosque as them came and threatened our kids and their friends and wrecked our car. having a mysterious illness, well, now diagnosed as ME/fibro (whatever that is), is pretty scary too - but knowing with such certainty He is with me has helped me to cope through any number of crises, and especially the loneliness.

i don't begin to pretend that "God speaks to me" every day. but i can be aware of his presence every day, i can learn every day, i can be open to him every day. i can be wary about not listening to other voices every day.


another example of hearing God speak : i was once at a worship conference in lincoln. i had got to know another woman a bit at table. during the extended worship session i felt i had to stand with her and say that God had said she wasn't to be left on her own. i did. i felt a right nit. she said she was fine; i just stood nearby feeling a bit of a dope. then there was an appeal, i listened vaguely but i didn't particularly feel i should go , it was for people in leadership, leading worship, pastors and pastors wives. i stopped listening cos this woman was sobbing her eyes out. i just put my hand on my shoulder and prayed gently in tongues. i didn't know what to say and she didn't look like chatting. they i gave her a hanky, she dried her eyes and said, i'm fine now. thanks. and i went back to my seat. much later, as i was leaving i met her chatting with someone and she said - do you know anything about me? and i said - no, we only chatted briefly at lunch. it turned out she was recently separated - her husband, the pastor, had gone off with the secretary. she'd had to go to another church - so along with the loss of her husband was a lot of loss of status too. no more leading worship or being a pastor's wife, so she felt very miserable and left out not being able to go to the front for that appeal. she was astonished and thrilled that god had provided for her to not be alone and it confirmed he was looking after her.

it was a familiar prompting that sent me to her, but some times i've have got it wrong too. however i don't think a prompting to do a simple act of kindness is ever wrong - unless it's being nebby and nosey or something, even if it's just you being moved by sympathy - that's the fruit of the spirit at work in you. 
i used to worry about if a name of someone came to mind should i pray for them or not. i now automatically pray for them - sometimes it's God prompting me and other times - well it's just their lucky day isn't it.

i find most times God speaks it's rarely guidance about the future (tho that does happen)- it's usually about dealing with something in the present. and often points to something in his character and something in my character. this builds something long term not just a superficial what shall I do next.

i find there are times when im' hasty and should have listened first - when someone asks for prayer, or in prayer for healing, or a miracle i find it's wisest to listen a bit first rather than just crash in with the usual catch phrases that could actually be unhelpful to the person being prayed for.

be careful not to make the wrong claims about something. for example a lot of times it looks like i had a word of knowledge, but i'm naturally curious and i might have noticed the slightest hint or remembered that that person said something that no one noticed at the time. that doesn't make it less God speaking to that person through me but i must be careful what i call it. i don't always remember what triggered it till after - but that's ok - if God chose to use it.

you're not at this stage but some people become so familiar with a churchy way of thinking and talking that this gets muddled in their head with what is actually God. they will bring out their thoughts but present it as God speaking. they're rarely being deliberately naughty, more often well meaning, but there's a thin line between what is harmless and what can be misleading, thoughtless or downright dangerous. in the ot they were called false prophets. the problem was that people liked them cos they said things they wanted to hear, and they looked to all intents and purposes like they were the real deal on the surface. this is why it's important that those who are familiar with prophesying should weigh up any prophecy that is given to check. hence being a little bit careful about prophecy given with no other witness present. always best to check.


part 4

i have found a useful way of checking back is this God speaking is to use a 3 way spirit level (lizzy joke ha ha).

the story : i was watching this bloke building a wall. he wasn't young. he was building a garden wall, and by the way he used his tools and the fluidity of his movements he'd done this lots of times before. what struck me was that at every stage he kept fiddling with his bit of string with a weight on it - you know a plumb line - to check the wall was straight up, and every new row he fixed a bit of string to check he was making it straight. he worked so easily i'm sure he could have done it by eye, but he knew himself and walls well enough to be wise enough to keep checking.


this got me thinking about - we can get so in the habit of making "christian" decisions or the atmosphere in christian meetings, that we maybe aren't always thorough about checking back that it is God speaking and not just our ambitions or hopes or just how our culture sees things. i thought about some of the ways to check we're on the right lines. like the bloke out the back building his wall we need to keep checking ourselves. a good workman makes it a habit like a nurse thinking to wash her hands.

Word of God - Jesus in person. what would Jesus do? is it the sort of thing he'd say. (greek logos - someone speaking something)

Word of God - the bible/scriptures/the law and the prophets/the apostles' teaching - does it fit with the general teaching on that subject in the bible (not just the interpretation of one verse) (greek graphos - something writen down - latin - scriptus ->scripture)

Word of God - prophecy - it it what God's saying at the moment? prophecy should be confirmed by others known to use prophetic gifts if there is any doubt. never hesitate to go and ask someone wise to check out a private word that's been given to you. (greek rhema - the specific message that someone is giving)
 
* beware, i've heard some superstitious rubbish with a bit of truth in it for good measure spoken on this subject. 

* be wary of anyone who thinks God only speaks through them and who is upset if you want to check it. 

* be wary of anyone wanting you to respond without letting you think about it. be wary of anything that leaves you feeling condemned. if it's the conviction of the holy spirit he always gives you something to do about it. and true repentance always brings release - remorse makes you feel better for a bit, but doesn't solve anything really. 

* beware of anyone making you feel you can't hear God properly cos you're young in the faith. parents talk to kids at any age so your heavenly father is very likely to talk to you.



part 5
knowing the difference between God talking and your feelings.

same as with your imagination, find out about your feelings. face them. they're not wrong, even if your reactions to them can be. get used to your own inner voice so you can recognise when you're talking to yourself; a healthy adult does it a lot of the time. if we always block out our thoughts with tv music etc it's not really helpful, same as the opposite extreme of being preoccupied with your own belly button and only listening to your thoughts :-)

you were talking about a journal. it might be that someone has suggested you write down what God says to you. i think that's a good idea. but i think it's helpful to keep a wider journal than that. write down things you're thinking about, event that have happened. put a ? - i wonder if God is speaking to me. come back to it later and re-read it - things may well have become clearer. don't be frightened to think things through. you may laugh when you come back to it in a couple of years time, or you may think - did i really write that - that's a bit wise :-) why didn't i act on it then ?

you got me started on a huge subject. i hope you find some of this helpful - it's by no means a complete study but some of my thoughts.
xx Liz xx

A thought : Africa, powers

Some thoughts about Africa, mainly subsaharan following a blog post by Roger Mitchell

and notably these comments (abridged) 

"Hi again Roger,
I hope you don’t mind me picking your brains.
(i) Is it significant that all the countries that border the Sahara – north & south – are ex-French colonies?
(ii) Is it significant that these countries are, not just the poorest in Africa, but in the world?
(iii) Is significant that Algeria is rich in Gas and Oil; Niger has the world’s largest Uranium reserves – which by the way powers France’s nuclear plants; Mali is Africa’s third biggest gold producer; and so on, and so on…?
(iv) We talk about the spirit of something, that which energises it, controls and influences it.  ...
 ...What if one of the greatest hindrances to peace/ shalom in Africa is poverty, the power and the spirit of poverty?  ... Covenants made long ago and constantly being energised by spilt blood, occult practices and unrighteous treaty or contract.... Africa is so much older than its colonial history, the truth of it so much more ancient. ... Maybe then we might know and understand, and then be able to act effectively.
I don’t know much really, but I do see a dawn, a long slow morning crepuscular, one that will captivate everyone with its beauty. I long to see Africa arise to the full light of day in all its God-given glory..."



May I join in this discussion. I also live in France. I’m making some huge generalisations which I would qualify a bit when it comes to the details.  Following the points made in the blog comments :

(i) When it came to colonisation it seems to me that France got the left overs. Britain ‘got’ India, West Africa, North America, and so on; the Dutch – South Africa; Spain and Portugal got South America, etc ie a lot of the rich pickings at the time.

(ii) Anyone living near the Sahara is living in difficult climatic conditions, amongst the harshest in the world and getting worse as the Sahel grows. North Africa has the fact that it borders the Mediterranean going for it so at least it is significant for trade etc 

(iii) The gas,oil and uranium are relatively recent factors that have made it worth while ‘having’ these countries after all. Of course the gold is a much older story and makes up for the climate a little bit.

(iv) I agree absolutely about what your shy friend (see original blog post by Roger Mitchell comments) says about the dominant spirits. In Africa just like in Europe there seems to be a perpetuation of certain patterns. In Africa there has been a historical pattern, just as in pre reformation Europe, of gutter poor peasants and a few extremely rich. There are still some very very very rich Africans in comparison with their compatriots. That is their pattern of government, to bleed the country as much as they can as long as they can stay in power. (Remember this is gross generalisations) This is the pattern followed by many European monarchs in Europe too. It’s a very very deeply rooted habit – like who could get the money and labour to build Stonehenge for example without exerting “a little pressure” shall we say ? When Europeans went to Africa they had largely stopped doing it so much to fellow Europeans and went and did it to Africans instead. And look what we did to China – French and Brits together – groan
Continuing about the dominant spirits I heard a fascinating account by a historian of Ghanain descent who has looked into the history of Ghana in West Africa. Apart from many wonderful things, he also found that there was already a history of slave taking long before the Brits got there. The Northern tribe used slaves from other neighbouring tribes to work the gold mines. When the Brits arrived the Northerners then sold these same neighbours to the Brits who then sold them on. Eventually the Brits found it cheaper to go and fetch the slaves themselves. I use this west african example to say that I think we must be very careful about generalisations based on Live Aid images which then permeate public attitudes, a fact that you’re very aware of. 

My personal opinion is now that “Africans” may or may not need us. Maybe we’re more of a nuisance than a blessing sometimes, not cos we perpetuate colonial attitudes, but cos they do. However I believe that the next wave of revival in the world will come from Africans from Africa reaching out. I think we desperately need their intercession and their willingness to share the gospel. I also think that people will be willing to respond to them without the strings attached cynicism that we give to westerners talking freely about just about anything. 

I think we need to be very very careful about replicating the spiritual and powers that we have at work too. There’s nothing very clever about how our markets are going about things and so called democracy, which isn’t really, and can just become a tool for buying support as opposed to earning it. For example I think the system of village elders and negotiation is much stronger than the dribs and drabs of democracy we have here . But overall the key not the question of whether we have serial leaders or keep the same ones, it’s partly how to help them leave power without losing face – a house of elders and seniors (as opposed to a house of land owners or lords) could be a very useful addition to the democracy we export – ditto in the church. It’s so much easier to leave any sort of leadership if you know you will still have some sort of status and respect afterwards.

The key seems to me to pray that we will have the courage to think beyond our boxes and, as you suggest, kenarchy (or the same thing but with a less clunky name – inventors are rarely good at choosing the best name that the public can attach to) has to be a key. Church structure patterns can often mirror those in society, and every where we need to have the courage to live and organise ourselves in radical, alternative ways (without giving in to anarchy on the other extreme). If we don’t give people a structure to copy they’ll go and reproduce what they’re used to.

Thank you for your work promoting love and goodwill, what ever we call it.


Just another comment on the continuity of powers front - We need to remember that one of the next biggest colonising powers after the Romans is Islam. Mohammed was himself an excellent or at least successful warlord chieftan, and his two aids then successors also gifted warriors and strategists. "Christian" powers required over 300 years before they took up arms, and then it was on the back of the Roman empire and under their direction. Islam was imposed by the sword from the word go. There is nothing incongruous about Islam, when it goes back to it's roots in it's most fundamentalist form, being warlike. The 'peace' which comes from it therefore has more in common with the Pax Romana - you get peace if you give in. Of course not all Muslims want to live like that now, far, far from it. The conquered ones didn't necessarily want to live like that then either. Let's not just see the "terrorists" as hole in a corner crazys. They follow in a tradition of fearless, brave warriors. If they were from our culture we'd be proud of them. I don't agree with what they do, but I don't agree with how we decide who are heros and who are deadloss loonys either. We went much the same way about conquering Africa too after all.

A thought, concretewords, : 'The Cupboard'

Concrete Words : The Cupboard

(ps I live in France and I'm disabled. I write the contents on the cupboard doors for the helpers to be able to find things)



We've run out of rice.

I peel back the layers in the cupboard. 

An end of pasta. Not enough for a meal.

Dried lentils. I never did get round to my resolution of healthy eating. I still haven't cooked them. I don't actually like them. Even if they're good for me I can't find them appetising.

Half a packet of wholegrain rice. Ditto.

How could I have let the bottom of the cupboard get so dirty ? Were does the dirt come from ? I'm not that dirty or careless ? Am I ?

Why don't I empty the cupboards to the bottom more often, isn't it easy. Cloth. Disinfectant. Bin the old stuff. Put back what's left.

Maybe there is enough pasta left in that packet if I do lots of veg with it.

I feel so good about myself. I want to take a photo of my lovely clean cupboard.


Like appologising. and letter writing. or sending a little card, or going for a walk. I don't get round to it. It's going to take so much. But when I do I feel so good. Why don't I do it more often ?

Thought : Ekklesia and Koinonia

Paul, I so agree with what you're saying here. I've given this so much thought. I've agonised over this. I've so longed for relationship, and depth. I've ached for it. The whole NT over and over : love love love. You cant just do that in a meeting. When I came to the Lord I already had church. What I needed was relationship. Relationship with God. Relationship with people. What principally brought me to make the commitment that made the difference was simple acts of kindness. Adults who remembered my name. Girls who invited me to sit with them in class and at lunch. Worship where I knew I just knew that not only was God present in the building but that He'd come out from behind the altar and sat with me in the pews. God talks. He even talks to ordinary people like me. Worship where even ordinary people could join in. Even ordinary people like me a shy 17 year old.

I found a lot of these things in planting new church. We had it. But then it got more formal and leaders got more distant and it changed. Alienation. I have to say that the influence from traditional pentecostal churches helped a lot in one way in helping us come into the fullness of the spirit. But we took on their priest heavy structures too.  Home/cell groups help a lot. They don't make relationship but it's easier to make relationship in a smaller group.

I've spent so many years talking about this, praying it over, going over and over the New Testament. Longing. Just longing.

I've come to the conclusion that it's not the church structure that makes the church. I've been in anglican churches where there has been heart organic church yet has a written liturgy for services and some of the services are still from the prayer book, but there's life. I've been in pentecostal churches that have been strangled, suffocated by the unwritten liturgy, unwritten rules, bullying of pastors or of anyone who was different.

I've come to feel that we need both ekklesia AND koinonia. They can both exist separately but are only half the story. Like so many of the pairs in the NT of seemingly opposites. Faith and Works. Grace and Truth. The words Church and Fellowship are not synonyms. They are opposites that complement each other. Yin and Yang. 


Ekklesia - NT greek - a public meeting for public participation. The original democracy.
Koinonia - NT greek - fellowship. intimate participation in something.





Remembered the old song :
Love and marriage,
Love and marriage,
Go together like a horse and carriage.

The structure + the organics.
Farms versus plants and animals. Plants and animals grow in the wild, that's organic. But feeding and protecting animals and tending the plants actually takes a lot of organisation and jolly hard work - that's farming.
Soulless mass farming leeches from the environment and finishes by leaving it sterile. No farming means everyone is just left to hunt and gather - OK for a few neanderthals in a very rich terrain.

Get starved of one and we resent the other. We blame the institution for the lack of fellowship. Obviously some institutions are less well designed for fellowship to be able to be incorporated but I've found that if I've been willing to do church within church by fostering relationship it compensates.

But where there is no structure at all there is no accountability, no adequate teaching and there is no obligation to remember the weak. The classic groups of course are the elderly who end up dropping off the map and the poor and weak who don't get on the map in the first place. I also think that unless we plan in time to pray and worship and teach it gradually gets left to the end then left out. I think good teaching needs serious study, prayer, maturity, experience, preparation. Worship got too big. Great have big worship from time to time but you can't do I Corinthians stuff in massive ekklesia. You need to have smaller scale ekklesia to be able to do more koinonia stuff with it.

Thought : Snow

Though your sins were as scarlet, yet you shall be as white as snow. 

 I think that's what holiness is like. I don't think real holiness is like a hospital - just scrubbed up old, antiseptic - yes, beautiful - no. I think it's like that feeling when you wake up and the world is suspiciously quiet. You open the curtains and there it is ! and it makes you ghasp just like when you were a kid. Not just clean. Twinkly. Fresh. So bright and light it makes summer seem dull. Those Christians who are the real deal who just steadily get on with what ever have that effect on me and make the tinsel town look gaudy and tatty without ever saying the slightest word of criticism. (They're more likely to say something encouraging and grateful anyway.)

Thoughts : Handling Prophecy

Although I do prophecy I have more experience of being on the other end of words.

Did your prophecy have a "best before" date on it ? We've been a rather "now" people expecting things straight away rather than understanding that sometimes things can take generations.

Was there an "if you" clause ? Of course God does act sovereignly but obedience does seem to be his preferred route.


Another thing we've found is that prophets don't always distinguish in what they're shown by God between what is and what will be. Some want to tell futures but what they're being shown is the present and it ends up being unclear what God is actually expecting  those receiving the word to do about it, if anything. 


We have found to our cost too that a prophet can be a nice person and having been given a number of key words and phrases will then interpret that in a way that he can understand as something to look forward to, when in fact it would have been a very helpful warning. If we'd understood it right at the beginning it would have short circuited the unhelpful speculation and confusion in a particular situation. He's not a bad man or a bad prophet, I'm sure he was trying to be kind. We needed pastoral support in praying through the word.


Like with being a faithful steward of some money means you get given cities to run, I've found that being honoured with a prophecy can a whole lot of hard work, sweat and tears is on it's way. The prophet sowed the word but now we need to be faithful to help the fruit happen and to make storehouses to hold it as it were, or it may happen but the value be lost cos they didn't believe it enough to equip themselves to harvest it. The whole thing is to be able to separate words from God from magic in people's minds.

Same with the bible - I gather that when the Coran first started to become popular some people thought they should market the bible in a way that is similarly attractive. But it is just so not the same thing. We can't take any old bits out of the bible and treat them as "sayings" in the same way, or as if they have magic properties just cos they're in that collection of documents. It's not omens, or spells or charms - you know that but unless it's clearly stated lots of people don't know that. There is so much "folk" belief around very deeply rooted and reinforced by the syncretistic use of "christian" beliefs. Sometimes prophecy brings out the best in people, sometimes they need help and wisdom how to handle it wisely and how to respond appropriately. Of course this is even stronger here on the continent, but we found it a lot in pentecostal circles.