My reply to a blog post about was the reform really needed, is it still needed ?
( NB sorry I can't call the RC the catholic ie universal church, I'm part of the holy, universal and apostolic church, and the RCs won't even let me share the family meal with them. So now do you think I'm anti Catholic ? Not at all anti catholics. I do have problems with the Vatican these days - voila, cards on table )
Can I start with a question. - If you lived at Luther's time, would you feel at ease in the RC as it was ?
When I lived in Britain I had no problems with the RC. I think we have made great strides in living together, and the RC, as practiced in England at least, has taken Vatican II to heart. Of course there are some key doctrines that mean that I would feel ill at ease being a regular member of an RC congregation, but I have happy fellowship with people who are RC members and I can feel fairly trusting of many of their senior leaders. I have been living here in France for 20 years now and have actively encouraged and participated in inter-church gatherings and what I thought was ecumenism. However I have had a number of encounters that have challenged my view.
* One was not so much an encounter as a discovery. Following something that sounded a bit odd to me, said by a bishop on the radio, I looked up ecumenism in a french dictionary. The bishop was right. It means meeting with others who call themselves christians to try to draw them back to the true church. So much for mutual respect.
* I heard several people (first hand and on the radio) talk about the appalling and life affecting damage done to them by their upbringing at the hands of nuns and priests, or in fundamentalist families - the worst being the consequent inability to be able to give or feel love to varying degrees. (Well, fundamentalist families of all sorts not just RC can do their fair share of damage, so I won't count that one too much).
* I also got "evangelised" by a catholic fundamentalist. (same note about fundamentalists)
* I wasn't allowed to take communion at a cousin's wedding. Some of the family could go forward, the rest were left in their seats as infidels, outcasts, heretics despite them sharing a living faith. Then I couldn't take communion at an interfaith gathering.
* When bishops have got wind of inter-church activity they have either directly banned it or highly discouraged it here.
* On the radio the bishops and other spokesmen frequently talk as if they are the only christians and that they speak for all.
* Here, when and if the reformation is mentioned, it is frequently in negative terms. The govt have roundly condemned massacres and ethnic cleansing in Armenia for example, and the Shoa, but anniversary of St Bartholomew's day, or repeal of the Edict of Nantes - not a peep. That period of time is euphemistically known as "The Wars of Religion". Like there was really 2 sides to the wide scale massacres which happened up and down the country not just in Paris ? Eventually some protestants took up arms, but it was very latterly. The country went from an estimated 43% protestant (including much of the royal court) to less than 3%. (figures quoted by the historian Frank Ferand on the radio station Europe 1)
* I was disgusted by the rank ignorance and flagrant homophobia shown by the very well supported demonstration in paris a few weeks ago against the marriage for all bill. My own jury is still out on that issue, but the attitudes shown by ordinary men and women at that event sickened me. They are not just a few extremists. They are the French RC by and large.
* As you well know France is home to a good number of Marist pilgrimage sites. They make a tidy profit. I can't talk about how I feel about how ignorance and superstition and idolatry is being encouraged, it makes me too sad and angry.
On the other hand I should mention a few exceptions - the Bishop of Lyon, a number of very brave and kind priests and some nuns, Abbé Pierre and the continued movement for the care of the homeless, a certain number of RC writers and broadcasters.
*****
As a protestant who didn't know I was protesting at all till I lived here I find this a can be a difficult atmosphere to live in, as you can imagine. I don't go for debate. I just water seeds of faith in individuals as I find them. I treat them as fellow christians, ie as I would want them to treat me.
But the fact is I live in a country that looked at the reformation and decided it didn't want it. There are many many consequences. The French out do us hands down in certain areas of excellence, that's not really what I'm talking about.
The one that strikes me the most is that in my observation social reform was and can still be much slower than in Protestant countries.
* I was amazed when we first came 20 years ago to find that the only decent books on the bookshop children's shelves were translations from English, German, or one of the Scandinavian languages. Many homes had no or few books in until Harry Potter came on the scene. At least communist homes would have a couple of books.
* Even now, to my knowledge, there is still no school in the whole of France for Autistic children. A good number have no specialised help at all, and some just have to stay home cos no one wants them.
* The hospice movement is tiny and still new.
* The state has no specialised places or staff for interviewing children who have been abused or need help to talk about things. A few magistrates who have been to England have set up charities to pay for a room in a hospital where they can talk to children.
* Take the fact that there was never any real grass roots labour movement here except the communist party. I will acknowledge that they have done some excellent things, but their aproach is so conflictual that they can't build something.Of course labour relations are far from perfect in Britain but at least there is, or at least used to be, far more labour representation, far more negotiation etc etc as a result of the labour movement which in good part came out of the protestant church movements.
I can't go on. The list is endless of things that have been proved and work and have not been introduced just because "It's the French Way". I've heard that phrase over and again in debates about these things. A debate on the value of getting parents into schools with statistics to prove it's value. All the debaters were in a agreement, but they were all in agreement at the end that it won't happen because It's not the French Way. This makes the inferiority complex worse not better. There are some things that are better here of course, there are 2 sides to everything, but I'm mainly quoting what I hear the french saying about themselves to themselves on France Inter, France Culture, and Europe 1.
Now to protestantism and protesting and division.
Clearly, or clearly to me, fraternal rupture when it is to do with disputes, personality clash, and so on is very very sad and unnecessary.
However split, when it becomes the only alternative, can be healthy. I see it like divorce. I hate divorce. I think it's dreadful. But I'm divorced and grateful for it. The law of the land recognised that I should not be obliged to live with someone who rendered my life so difficult. I still believe in marriage. Likewise, sometimes because of serious false doctrine (not trivialities about details of practice) or sin, I think rupture is needed where reconciliation has been tried and rejected. Luther tried and was rejected. Puritans tried and were rejected. Methodists tried and were rejected. I now also feel that sometimes split for cultural reason is necessary. Take a minor example. Some people were upset at a parish church that they divided the morning service into 2 services even though they weren't packed to the doors, but I think it's not rupture it's growth. They did the early Prayer book and later Family Service with monthly joint - both services are doing better. That church had the courage to face the fact that people have different needs and ways to express themselves and that's ok. There is even one of the churches in the group that is openly charismatic. That's ok with the others. The vicars can still meet together and support each other. They can still have joint events and publicise each others events and accept some coming and going by worshipers among the different churches in the group. One has no disabled access, but another meets in a centre for the disabled. That's ok. This church is rare. Often these different needs and views have to be met by rupture because of the rigidity of the structures they are in or of those in power.
I am now proud of being a protestant. I think - the more churches the merrier. There is need for as many churches as possible, and why not of all different flavours, aproaches and outlooks. I was in a denominational church and the elderly, who had been the youth of that church once, liked it the way it was and didn't want change. I'm not angry with them. Perhaps they were being a little selfish - who am I to judge? The polite thing was not to discretely try to change them, but to make church as we saw it elsewhere, just like they had done in their day. Some were threatened but surprisingly some gave us their blessing.
Now I look and see that each wave of new church and new christian movement brings something new and refreshing to our perspective of God and christianity and how to live it. I'm proud of it. If the reformation brought reform. Much needed reform. It's still bringing reform. Still needed. Yes there have been and will be some excesses along the way as the pendulum swings. Should we try to grab on to the pendulum to try to stop it ? Should we berate the new pendulum riders as heretics ? Calvin's words, spoken in the context of Geneva at that time were not so odd, they were the pendulum. Calvin-ISM of course has done as much damage as lots of -ISMs including the recent health and wealth movements for example which started out as a healthy re-balancing and became an overbalance. Every movement that is a prophetic movement in it's own time and context can be a curse when applied rigidly elsewhere. Even Jesus did not say the same to everyone, even saying apparent opposites in very different situations. He never called the ordinary crowds whitewashed tombs or a brood of vipers! Neither should we address some of the fiery challenges of Finney or Calvin to the ordinary man off the street Alpha course !
Thank you for bringing up this debate. I hope you find my contributions fruitful. x
Showing posts with label leaders. Show all posts
Showing posts with label leaders. Show all posts
Friday, 8 March 2013
Wednesday, 6 March 2013
“Where is the temple ?”
If I had ever managed to write a book about my time as a worship leader
and my thoughts on the subject the title would have been “Where is the
temple ?” That seems to me to be key – where we imagine the
temple to be.
As long as we think it’s a building we’ll think the people who officiate there are the priests so everyone else must be the visiting pilgrims. Where as we know that we are the temple of the HS and we are each clearly handed priestly duties such as offerings, sacrifices, praise and intercession. There is no link in any way in the NT between the role of leaders – (and there are leaders, with clear roles) and the priestly duties we are given !
As long as we think it’s a building we’ll think the people who officiate there are the priests so everyone else must be the visiting pilgrims. Where as we know that we are the temple of the HS and we are each clearly handed priestly duties such as offerings, sacrifices, praise and intercession. There is no link in any way in the NT between the role of leaders – (and there are leaders, with clear roles) and the priestly duties we are given !
Friday, 23 November 2012
Study : Who or what is a Pastor ?
Who or what is a Pastor ?
NT church leadership : Dictionary study
I got some Bible dictionaries out, mainly Vines and looked up a few New Testament leadership words. I think some of them are so loaded with political and religious overtones these days that it could be safer just to use the word leader ! I think that if you keep a funny looking foreign word that's become a posh or jargon word then you can give it any meaning you like cos you've avoided using plain English.
* Pastor : latin of course, I forgot that. The greek is poimen - I'd never heared of that before and the New Testament is riddled with it. Not a religious word in greek or latin, but a concept used for leaders in the OT. Everywhere the translators go all the way to translating it into shepherd EXCEPT in eph 4 where they keep the latin word pastor. Hmmm, is there a whiff of politics in the air here ?
* Bishop : An englishified pronunciation of episcopos - epi - greek for over, scopeo - to look at or watch. Overseer, foreman, supervisor. Not a religious word.
* Elder : prebuteros : greek for old, and may well refer to maturity and experience not just age given that life expectancy wasn't so brilliant. Not a religious word. We still talk greek - presbyters - i've never known what they do though although I was christened in my grandad Jones' Presbyterian church and he was an elder. I've just answered my own question. He sang in the Liverpool welsh male voice choir too and he died playing tennis - his friends thought he as larking around as usual when he keeled over. That's not in Vines.
* Deacon or Minister was well worth a look. : - greek verb diaco - to hasten after. Used to mean servant or serving. It indicates that you're not the boss - you're running round for a master. You're not doing things because you fancy it or for your fulfillment (though that could be a result). It gets used all over the place. Very very rarely is it a job title. The ones who are picked in acts 6 are never actually called deacons, the word is the one used for waiting at tables (pretty impressive church policy to pay for that many high quality men to care for the elderly - we do pick and choose what doctrines and practices we choose to follow or ignore).
Diakonos are household servants amongst other things, but can be doing anything from scrubbing floors to accountancy. It comes in "serving one another" 1pet4v10, "works of service" eph4. In 1timv10,13 "Let them serve as deacons" seems to be more encouraging a particular attitude than a job title, Mr. Vines says. It seems to be that we all should serve. Some are appointed serve as overseers but they should do that and everything else they do with an attitude of service.
Diaconos describes a) how we work for God, b) preaching and teaching and c) working for the church. Paul calls himself one twice, in acts 26v16 and along with Apollos and Cephas in 1cor4v1.
Vines says the technical difference between diaconos - hired servant, and dulos - bond slave is the type of contract with the master - ie the second is permanent.They probably do much the same work just on a different contract.
[Dulos - bond slave ie Old Testament slavery which is forced service too but the person is not bought or kidnapped. It's imposed by a court (the elders at the gate) to pay off debt or fines. Slaves should still be given civic rights. It can't last more than 7 years. If at the end of the time the slave decides steady work with food and lodging thrown in is less hazardous than hanging about in the market place being used as temporary labour its him who says to the master I like you and want to stay on. I dont know how much say the master gets in it! A scarification on the ear lobe is the visual sign of the permanent contract between the two according to Leviticus. What if these days, instead of prison, offenders had to work as free household employees for the people they have stolen from, or creditors etc... until they've worked enough hours to pay it off, or 7 years which ever is the least and then have the option of permanent work and lodgings at the end of it?]
1pet 5v2 refers to people as overseers and shepherds,
and in hebrews Jesus is the overseer and shepherd.
1tim5v17 those that look after the affairs of the church well are worth paying properly.
Leadership is always plural when it comes to elders or shepherds
and they 1)feed 2)lead 3)protect : Acts - Paul's farewell to the Ephesian elders.
I think that, (following the logic of vines' suggestions):-
° Overseer/Bishop (episcopos) is a job title,
° Elder (prebuteros)- is the qualities/qualifications required
° Deacon/Minister/Presbyter (diaconos) is job role and attitude ie obedience to the boss, working, meeting needs
° Shepherd/Pastor (poimen) is a job/task description, along with Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, (see below)
So -lizzy f's conclusion :
Using the words as they were originally used outside a church context
- your average slave
could spend his/her day serving
he becomes elderly/experienced,
so he/she could be promoted to work as theforeman/supervisor.
Senior tasks can include being looking after and teaching other workers, and acting on behalf of the boss - giving messages, being sent out to sort out things, and making public announcements about his good news.
AND inside church the same person could also
- be in a dulos/slave relationship with God,
and so could Deacon/Minister serve in the church
he's mature Elder/Presbyter
and so could be an Overseer/Bishop, which according to Ephesians 4 could then be
Pastor ( poimen :greek -shepherd), one who feeds, leads, protects the flock
Evangelist (euangelion - town crier, from : eu - well/good,- angellein- to bring news ) person who proclaims some good news
Apostle (greek apo - away, stellein - to send) someone sent out to help or advise
Prophet (greek - prophetes, pro - for(another)- phanai - to speak) to speak on behalf of someone, in this case God, spokesman, representative.
Teacher (didaskalos - to show, teach, impart) to pass on skills and knowledge
and by doing it he will be helping the people to serve too and so build up the Body of Christ
NT church leadership : Dictionary study
I got some Bible dictionaries out, mainly Vines and looked up a few New Testament leadership words. I think some of them are so loaded with political and religious overtones these days that it could be safer just to use the word leader ! I think that if you keep a funny looking foreign word that's become a posh or jargon word then you can give it any meaning you like cos you've avoided using plain English.
* Pastor : latin of course, I forgot that. The greek is poimen - I'd never heared of that before and the New Testament is riddled with it. Not a religious word in greek or latin, but a concept used for leaders in the OT. Everywhere the translators go all the way to translating it into shepherd EXCEPT in eph 4 where they keep the latin word pastor. Hmmm, is there a whiff of politics in the air here ?
* Bishop : An englishified pronunciation of episcopos - epi - greek for over, scopeo - to look at or watch. Overseer, foreman, supervisor. Not a religious word.
* Elder : prebuteros : greek for old, and may well refer to maturity and experience not just age given that life expectancy wasn't so brilliant. Not a religious word. We still talk greek - presbyters - i've never known what they do though although I was christened in my grandad Jones' Presbyterian church and he was an elder. I've just answered my own question. He sang in the Liverpool welsh male voice choir too and he died playing tennis - his friends thought he as larking around as usual when he keeled over. That's not in Vines.
* Deacon or Minister was well worth a look. : - greek verb diaco - to hasten after. Used to mean servant or serving. It indicates that you're not the boss - you're running round for a master. You're not doing things because you fancy it or for your fulfillment (though that could be a result). It gets used all over the place. Very very rarely is it a job title. The ones who are picked in acts 6 are never actually called deacons, the word is the one used for waiting at tables (pretty impressive church policy to pay for that many high quality men to care for the elderly - we do pick and choose what doctrines and practices we choose to follow or ignore).
Diakonos are household servants amongst other things, but can be doing anything from scrubbing floors to accountancy. It comes in "serving one another" 1pet4v10, "works of service" eph4. In 1timv10,13 "Let them serve as deacons" seems to be more encouraging a particular attitude than a job title, Mr. Vines says. It seems to be that we all should serve. Some are appointed serve as overseers but they should do that and everything else they do with an attitude of service.
Diaconos describes a) how we work for God, b) preaching and teaching and c) working for the church. Paul calls himself one twice, in acts 26v16 and along with Apollos and Cephas in 1cor4v1.
Vines says the technical difference between diaconos - hired servant, and dulos - bond slave is the type of contract with the master - ie the second is permanent.They probably do much the same work just on a different contract.
[Dulos - bond slave ie Old Testament slavery which is forced service too but the person is not bought or kidnapped. It's imposed by a court (the elders at the gate) to pay off debt or fines. Slaves should still be given civic rights. It can't last more than 7 years. If at the end of the time the slave decides steady work with food and lodging thrown in is less hazardous than hanging about in the market place being used as temporary labour its him who says to the master I like you and want to stay on. I dont know how much say the master gets in it! A scarification on the ear lobe is the visual sign of the permanent contract between the two according to Leviticus. What if these days, instead of prison, offenders had to work as free household employees for the people they have stolen from, or creditors etc... until they've worked enough hours to pay it off, or 7 years which ever is the least and then have the option of permanent work and lodgings at the end of it?]
1pet 5v2 refers to people as overseers and shepherds,
and in hebrews Jesus is the overseer and shepherd.
1tim5v17 those that look after the affairs of the church well are worth paying properly.
Leadership is always plural when it comes to elders or shepherds
and they 1)feed 2)lead 3)protect : Acts - Paul's farewell to the Ephesian elders.
I think that, (following the logic of vines' suggestions):-
° Overseer/Bishop (episcopos) is a job title,
° Elder (prebuteros)- is the qualities/qualifications required
° Deacon/Minister/Presbyter (diaconos) is job role and attitude ie obedience to the boss, working, meeting needs
° Shepherd/Pastor (poimen) is a job/task description, along with Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Teacher, (see below)
So -lizzy f's conclusion :
Using the words as they were originally used outside a church context
- your average slave
could spend his/her day serving
he becomes elderly/experienced,
so he/she could be promoted to work as theforeman/supervisor.
Senior tasks can include being looking after and teaching other workers, and acting on behalf of the boss - giving messages, being sent out to sort out things, and making public announcements about his good news.
AND inside church the same person could also
- be in a dulos/slave relationship with God,
and so could Deacon/Minister serve in the church
he's mature Elder/Presbyter
and so could be an Overseer/Bishop, which according to Ephesians 4 could then be
Pastor ( poimen :greek -shepherd), one who feeds, leads, protects the flock
Evangelist (euangelion - town crier, from : eu - well/good,- angellein- to bring news ) person who proclaims some good news
Apostle (greek apo - away, stellein - to send) someone sent out to help or advise
Prophet (greek - prophetes, pro - for(another)- phanai - to speak) to speak on behalf of someone, in this case God, spokesman, representative.
Teacher (didaskalos - to show, teach, impart) to pass on skills and knowledge
and by doing it he will be helping the people to serve too and so build up the Body of Christ
Saturday, 17 November 2012
Study : Giving - to whom ?
Giving - to whom ?
By Liz Figures in THRESHING FLOOR (Files) · Edit doc · Delete
1. Attitudes to giving
* 1 Corinthians 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
* Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices— mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.
* James 2:2-4
2" Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, Here's a good seat for you, but say to the poor man, You stand there or Sit on the floor by my feet,
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
* 2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
* 2 Corinthians 8
The Collection for the Lord’s People
13 "Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,"
2) Who to give to
A) RELATIVES
1 tim 5v8 "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
B) LEADERS
17 "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching."
1 cor 9v 13 "Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."
Galatians 6v6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
C) BROTHERS IN NEED
Acts 4:34
There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
Acts 4:35
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 10:2
He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
rom 12 v13 "Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality."
Ephesians 4:28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Matthew 6:2So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
James 2:15-17
15 "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
1 john 3v17 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
D) THE POOR
acts 6v1" In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:32-34 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 14:13
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
Acts 9:36
In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor.
Acts 10:4
Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord? he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
Acts 10:31
and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor.
Acts 24:17
After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings.Galatians 2v9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
Galations 2 v 9
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
Matthew 25 The Sheep and the Goats
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
* 1 Corinthians 13:3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
* Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices— mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practised the latter, without neglecting the former.
* James 2:2-4
2" Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in.
3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, Here's a good seat for you, but say to the poor man, You stand there or Sit on the floor by my feet,
4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?"
* 2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
* 2 Corinthians 8
The Collection for the Lord’s People
13 "Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. 14 At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality,"
2) Who to give to
A) RELATIVES
1 tim 5v8 "Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever."
B) LEADERS
17 "The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching."
1 cor 9v 13 "Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel."
Galatians 6v6 Nevertheless, the one who receives instruction in the word should share all good things with their instructor.
C) BROTHERS IN NEED
Acts 4:34
There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales
Acts 4:35
and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
Acts 10:2
He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
rom 12 v13 "Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality."
Ephesians 4:28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.
Hebrews 13:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Matthew 6:2So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honoured by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
James 2:15-17
15 "Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
1 john 3v17 "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth."
D) THE POOR
acts 6v1" In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Grecian Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.
2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
3 Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them
4 and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word."
Matthew 19:21
Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
Luke 12:33
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
Luke 12:32-34 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
Luke 14:13
But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind,
Acts 9:36
In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor.
Acts 10:4
Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord? he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.
Acts 10:31
and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor.
Acts 24:17
After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings.Galatians 2v9 James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews.
Galations 2 v 9
James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognised the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.
Matthew 25 The Sheep and the Goats
31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
Sunday, 4 November 2012
A Rant : Legitimate needs, Non-legitimate grumbling.
A Rant : Legitimate needs, Non-legitimate grumbling
Who can sit in judgement on his brother ? - no one. Who ought to exercise right judgement ? - every one.
I've been meditating lately in Exodus. They got out of Egypt. They got across the Red Sea. They had a huge party. Everything was going swimmingly. Moses had obeyed God, conquered his fear of talking and faced up to Pharaoh. He'd done it. Now he was tired but he was out in a familiar and comforting environment for him, he'd lived in the desert. But he'd taken on these people. He didn't remember that they were in what was totally new to them, and he was still in charge. He'd led them out. That was only the end of the beginning. He forgot they needed water. 3 days in and it's desperate. It's an oversight. He should have thought of it.
But instead of asking politely "what should we do about this, Moses ?" it was a perfectly legitimate need after all, instead they lurched straight into grumbling and destructive negativity. In the end it's the sin of grumbling that is remembered rather than Moses' mistake.
Who can sit in judgement on his brother ? - no one. Who ought to exercise right judgement ? - every one.
I've been meditating lately in Exodus. They got out of Egypt. They got across the Red Sea. They had a huge party. Everything was going swimmingly. Moses had obeyed God, conquered his fear of talking and faced up to Pharaoh. He'd done it. Now he was tired but he was out in a familiar and comforting environment for him, he'd lived in the desert. But he'd taken on these people. He didn't remember that they were in what was totally new to them, and he was still in charge. He'd led them out. That was only the end of the beginning. He forgot they needed water. 3 days in and it's desperate. It's an oversight. He should have thought of it.
But instead of asking politely "what should we do about this, Moses ?" it was a perfectly legitimate need after all, instead they lurched straight into grumbling and destructive negativity. In the end it's the sin of grumbling that is remembered rather than Moses' mistake.
I love
the new church movement. From my first experiences in Lincoln in the mid
70s onwards. But there have maybe been oversights along the way. How do
we do mid course flight correction, but without condoning the grumbling
that is asking for it? The needs are legit. The grumbling isn't. Moses
gave them the water, it would have been pretty churlish not to. But the
deeper need of learning how to communicate need in appropriate ways,
providing channels for it to be able to be dealt with took much longer
to set up. It's not just getting folks out of slavery, it's getting the
slavery out of them.
I can't pretend that there hasn't been some pretty dreadful things happen in "churches" and done by some of their leaders. There are some pretty stupid and pointless or petty things too. Maybe there are inherent weaknesses, even sin, built into how we structure "church". The needs/demands are on the whole legitimate. But how can we deal with that in healthy ways? Ways that will build up, not break down ? How can we say that there is hurt and abuse and manipulation and ask for it to be dealt with, but in a way that is not grumbling and focussed on negativity?
I've read a few blogs lately on the subject of "church" and the fact that some people are finding a place that suits them better in what they are calling the wilderness. Some are loving and thoughtful expressions of wanting to walk with God despite not being able to walk with "institutionalised" expressions of "church". But some of them have some pretty negative, judgemental attitudes running along within them too. The need is legit. But the grumbling isn't. How do we honestly face up to the failings and fragility of "church" but without throwing the baby out with the bathwater ? Like, you really think you'd be better off back in Egypt ? Like we founded new churches specially to leave you to die of thirst in a wilderness ? Like we really need to smash each other's efforts with friendly fire - haven't we got enough to deal with with the enemy?
This isn't anything new. But are we capable of finding new ways of dealing with it ?
Moses needed to face his responsibilities.
The People needed to learn how to express their needs in appropriate ways.
40 years earlier Moses had had to learn that you can't just deal with things by lashing out, however legitimate the argument.
The People needed to learn the same lessons. Yes they were damaged goods, they'd been bullied and oppressed. But they too needed to learn how to act like free people. They'd got to grow up too.
Lord help us. Lord help us.
Wednesday, 31 October 2012
Thursday, 18 October 2012
Rant and Poem : Has new church become old church ?
Rant and Poem : Has new church become old church
i dont want to rubbish what "church" has become. i'm glad there are thousands of people meeting regularly all over britain to worship God ! it's brilliant. there are so many not just owning but reading bibles and christian literature ! people are praying, interceding, caring for the poor and needy, reaching out to the lost ! hallelujah. but we need to find a way forward so that it doesn't become rigidified. is that possible. or must we continually have to have a protest movement and division in order to bring progress ?
There are good models around that allowed numerical growth along with personal growth - especially the Early Methodists. I'll lay my cards on the table i personally think that subdivision has to be part of the way forward.
But lets look at the problem. I hope to look more at positive suggests in a future post. I need to look the problem as I see it.
very sad cos the pendulum in some churches and movements seems to have swung back from what we, or at least many of us, had hoped would be achieved in the charismatic, renewal, restoration, new church movement. priesthood of all believers, team leadership, baptism in the spirit and use of the gifts of the spirit. hand in hand with what some evangelical groups like Scripture union and UCCF and all the others had been doing to encourage individuals to be able to read the bible for themselves and listen to God themselves and training people in small group leadership, team leadership etc.
* how did it happen ? how do movements lose momentum ? how did it get diverted ? maybe not all of it has. maybe some has.
I don't want to hurtle into the opposite overbalance of saying all church groups are like this all the time, but in my meanderings on the internet and my experiences in churches and christian groupings in Britain and in France these are some tendencies that I've observed. (There are always exceptions, and generalisations can always be disputed) :
a) overbalance put on what was basically good teaching : restoring confident and mature spiritual leadership - teaching on anointing, an unfortunate choice of word cos it left others feeling or being told that that must mean that they're not anointed.
b) superstition that came again from a basically really good source - Tozer helped restore a greater spirituality amongst leaders but he also is very top heavy putting almost impossible demands on one man pastorships.
c) plain old fashioned human-ness that makes leaders heavy handed - weakness, ambition, frustration, desires, temptations (pennies, power, petticoats, pride GC), loneliness, utterly unreaslitic expectations put on them by congregations or "apostles", competitiveness, etc etc (this doesn't rule out that congregations, committees, elderships and PCCs can be bullies)
d) another factor i think was the haste with which we had to set up new churches without really being able to look at what did we want to set up in terms of structure. we were enthusiastic and took some things for granted. Idealistic groups are far more likely to be taken advantage of by those with "strong" characters or who have their own agendas.
e) cos we were keen to enter into the things of the spirit we took our models from the traditional pentecostal churches, especially the assemblies of god. i dont want to pick out the aog as any better or any worse than any other denomination but one of the things that didnt get resolved in the early days of the aog was the paternalistic attitude that was prevalent in the US in early 20th C when it was founded and led to a strong clergy-laity divide which has ended up inadvertently being reproduced in the new church movement in many areas. also the outward signs from azuza street were carried on, especially the gift of tongues, but the incredible racial and class reconciliation that was maybe an even more powerful element was deliberately, consciously rejected by those who took over the leadership in the early days and never restored later.
f) another thing that i've observed which is a positive again but with negative side effects - i think the new church movement is victim of it's own success. why have churches got so big - cos they're attractive. people want to go to them. there are some wonderful teachers and preachers and with good reason people want to hear them and follow them. i'm not just thinking of the flashy people who advertise themselves. what about a humble boy-next-door gent like stuart bell in lincoln. i was part of the first accidental church plant with him and his family in 1975 in lincoln. he and his mates formed a christian pop band to reach youth. we were reached. they wanted to provide for them and their church wouldnt let them so they had to make a church. lincoln free church had many if not all the elements i would still look for in a church. but you cant keep on having a family atmosphere and everyone participating in meetings when it gets too big to know everyone. the church keeps growing. you have to subdivide if you want to keep the atmosphere, but naturally everyone wants to be with the leaders that have already got the most experience and who are the best teachers.
g) Gross generalisation with an element of truth : Leaders who came into leadership through division are fearful of trusting others not to run off with their flocks. Churches that came from protest movements become fearful of protest.
I'll say it again. i dont want to rubbish what church has become. i'm glad there are thousands of people meeting regularly all over britain to worship God ! it's brilliant. there are so many not just owning but reading bibles and christian literature ! people are praying, interceding, caring for the poor and needy, reaching out to the lost ! hallelujah. but we need to find a way forward to that it doesnt become rigidified. is that possible. or must we continually have to have a protest movement and division in order to bring progress ?
i personally think that subdivision has to be part of the way forward so that there are home based cells, smallish (up to a hundred ) congregations with elders as co-pastors and big celebrations say once a month where the main teaching is done. Among the many good models around look at early Methodism.
Lord give us wisdom and grace
this is a poem i wrote when i got particularly fed up about it all about 10 years ago. i'm not so negative now about it now as i was :
A sacrifice of praise
We bring a sacrifice of praise
And boy it’s a sacrifice these days
Look how things have changed you say
We didn’t want it done that way
We kicked out pews, moved round the chairs
Aisles were for dancing, hugs and prayers
We swapped the pros for amateurs
With just 3 chords we're all worshippers
But now feels like olden times returned
Lay man sidelined, pastor’s wage must be earned
And much as I love the odd diminished chord
Is it really essential to worship the Lord ?
i dont want to rubbish what "church" has become. i'm glad there are thousands of people meeting regularly all over britain to worship God ! it's brilliant. there are so many not just owning but reading bibles and christian literature ! people are praying, interceding, caring for the poor and needy, reaching out to the lost ! hallelujah. but we need to find a way forward so that it doesn't become rigidified. is that possible. or must we continually have to have a protest movement and division in order to bring progress ?
There are good models around that allowed numerical growth along with personal growth - especially the Early Methodists. I'll lay my cards on the table i personally think that subdivision has to be part of the way forward.
But lets look at the problem. I hope to look more at positive suggests in a future post. I need to look the problem as I see it.
very sad cos the pendulum in some churches and movements seems to have swung back from what we, or at least many of us, had hoped would be achieved in the charismatic, renewal, restoration, new church movement. priesthood of all believers, team leadership, baptism in the spirit and use of the gifts of the spirit. hand in hand with what some evangelical groups like Scripture union and UCCF and all the others had been doing to encourage individuals to be able to read the bible for themselves and listen to God themselves and training people in small group leadership, team leadership etc.
* how did it happen ? how do movements lose momentum ? how did it get diverted ? maybe not all of it has. maybe some has.
I don't want to hurtle into the opposite overbalance of saying all church groups are like this all the time, but in my meanderings on the internet and my experiences in churches and christian groupings in Britain and in France these are some tendencies that I've observed. (There are always exceptions, and generalisations can always be disputed) :
a) overbalance put on what was basically good teaching : restoring confident and mature spiritual leadership - teaching on anointing, an unfortunate choice of word cos it left others feeling or being told that that must mean that they're not anointed.
b) superstition that came again from a basically really good source - Tozer helped restore a greater spirituality amongst leaders but he also is very top heavy putting almost impossible demands on one man pastorships.
c) plain old fashioned human-ness that makes leaders heavy handed - weakness, ambition, frustration, desires, temptations (pennies, power, petticoats, pride GC), loneliness, utterly unreaslitic expectations put on them by congregations or "apostles", competitiveness, etc etc (this doesn't rule out that congregations, committees, elderships and PCCs can be bullies)
d) another factor i think was the haste with which we had to set up new churches without really being able to look at what did we want to set up in terms of structure. we were enthusiastic and took some things for granted. Idealistic groups are far more likely to be taken advantage of by those with "strong" characters or who have their own agendas.
e) cos we were keen to enter into the things of the spirit we took our models from the traditional pentecostal churches, especially the assemblies of god. i dont want to pick out the aog as any better or any worse than any other denomination but one of the things that didnt get resolved in the early days of the aog was the paternalistic attitude that was prevalent in the US in early 20th C when it was founded and led to a strong clergy-laity divide which has ended up inadvertently being reproduced in the new church movement in many areas. also the outward signs from azuza street were carried on, especially the gift of tongues, but the incredible racial and class reconciliation that was maybe an even more powerful element was deliberately, consciously rejected by those who took over the leadership in the early days and never restored later.
f) another thing that i've observed which is a positive again but with negative side effects - i think the new church movement is victim of it's own success. why have churches got so big - cos they're attractive. people want to go to them. there are some wonderful teachers and preachers and with good reason people want to hear them and follow them. i'm not just thinking of the flashy people who advertise themselves. what about a humble boy-next-door gent like stuart bell in lincoln. i was part of the first accidental church plant with him and his family in 1975 in lincoln. he and his mates formed a christian pop band to reach youth. we were reached. they wanted to provide for them and their church wouldnt let them so they had to make a church. lincoln free church had many if not all the elements i would still look for in a church. but you cant keep on having a family atmosphere and everyone participating in meetings when it gets too big to know everyone. the church keeps growing. you have to subdivide if you want to keep the atmosphere, but naturally everyone wants to be with the leaders that have already got the most experience and who are the best teachers.
g) Gross generalisation with an element of truth : Leaders who came into leadership through division are fearful of trusting others not to run off with their flocks. Churches that came from protest movements become fearful of protest.
I'll say it again. i dont want to rubbish what church has become. i'm glad there are thousands of people meeting regularly all over britain to worship God ! it's brilliant. there are so many not just owning but reading bibles and christian literature ! people are praying, interceding, caring for the poor and needy, reaching out to the lost ! hallelujah. but we need to find a way forward to that it doesnt become rigidified. is that possible. or must we continually have to have a protest movement and division in order to bring progress ?
i personally think that subdivision has to be part of the way forward so that there are home based cells, smallish (up to a hundred ) congregations with elders as co-pastors and big celebrations say once a month where the main teaching is done. Among the many good models around look at early Methodism.
Lord give us wisdom and grace
this is a poem i wrote when i got particularly fed up about it all about 10 years ago. i'm not so negative now about it now as i was :
A sacrifice of praise
We bring a sacrifice of praise
And boy it’s a sacrifice these days
Look how things have changed you say
We didn’t want it done that way
We kicked out pews, moved round the chairs
Aisles were for dancing, hugs and prayers
We swapped the pros for amateurs
With just 3 chords we're all worshippers
But now feels like olden times returned
Lay man sidelined, pastor’s wage must be earned
And much as I love the odd diminished chord
Is it really essential to worship the Lord ?
Saturday, 14 July 2012
A thought : Doh !
"the spectacular inability of those in church leadership to understand our situation is excusable, until seen in comparison with the relative simplicity and acceptance of others less responsible for people's pastoral welfare"
i still believe in church. but i believe even more strongly in better training and less insecurity amongst it's leaders.
i still believe in church. but i believe even more strongly in better training and less insecurity amongst it's leaders.
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